death of GA in NY

The slow death of GA is in acceleration in the NY area. TEB FBO's moving
out pushing the feeding chain down. FBO's now requiring TSA clearance
even for renters (not just trainees as required by law; since when did
FBO's become worse than homeland security?).

FBO's outside of TEB losing students by the dozens due to fuel and the 3rd
price hike in less than a month.

Nice going everyone. I always thought what would finally kill GA would be
the media or anti airport sentiment; not FBO's. There is not one that I
would recommend within 25 miles of new york city.

And .. if you respond and defend an FBO here I can only wonder why.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:54:19 -0400, wrote in
::

FBO's now requiring TSA clearance
even for renters (not just trainees as required by law; since when did
FBO's become worse than homeland security?).

Dear Elie,

What action have you taken to mitigate the issue you raise? Have you
contacted your local FSDO inspector? Have you contacted your
governmental representatives?

The TSA clearance, is that for foreign students/renters? If so, that's
a new requirement nationwide.

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL

Probably just the useless, recreational form of GA is dying for economic
reasons. And this is before the user fees are enacted! Outstanding!

Part of the reason that user fees are inevitable is because commercial
aviation is tired of subsidizing small planes. The upcoming Delta
bankruptcy will shine more light on the huge subsidies that GA is
receiving, from the AIP operating and capital grants, to the FAA system
that GA gets to use for free.

The next major GA incident (whether it be another violation of the ADIZ,
or the next high profile crash) will provide opportunity for anti-GA
activists to really pile on. For now, we wait, patiently.

In article
outaviation.com,
"Skylune" made like a vulture, circled and
lied :

Probably just the useless, recreational form of GA is dying for economic
reasons. And this is before the user fees are enacted! Outstanding!


Let's also get rid of:
1. national parks, as they serve only recreational uses
2. state and local parks (ditto above)
3. golf courses (ditto above)
4. sports arenas (ditto above), plus, they subsidize super-wealthy
owners and players
5. concert halls
6. public libraries, as people can buy their own books


Part of the reason that user fees are inevitable is because commercial
aviation is tired of subsidizing small planes. The upcoming Delta
bankruptcy will shine more light on the huge subsidies that GA is
receiving, from the AIP operating and capital grants, to the FAA system
that GA gets to use for free.


Actually, GA subsidizes the airlines, by providing a pipeline for pilot
training.


The next major GA incident (whether it be another violation of the ADIZ,
or the next high profile crash) will provide opportunity for anti-GA
activists to really pile on. For now, we wait, patiently.

Written like a true vulture!

This one deserves more than one sentence.

You need 1500 hours to get an ATP. At $100 per hour, that's $150,000 just
for the minimum flying hours required to *take* the test. How much multi
time is required?

Now, think about the drop out rate among pilots. Jay Honeck started a thread
recently about the number of drop outs from flying. I would expect at least
50% of first time flyers do not get a private ticket.

The majority of the 1500 hours needed for an ATP is gained through
instruction. This instruction is funded by General Aviation. What would
happen if GA dissapeared from this training stream. What happens to the
number of qualified pilots? Does the FAA lower the standards? Do the
airlines begin training newly minted commercial pilots to become ATPs? That
would only cost them $125,000 each (assuming none drop out).

Any way you look at it, the elimination of GA would cause major problems for
the airlines.




"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news

Actually, GA subsidizes the airlines, by providing a pipeline for pilot
training.

I don't expect user fees will reduce GA activity much. Only safety.

I flew to Maine and back this weekend (Almost over your house, but at 5500
or 6500 feet), and never spoke to ATC, or anyone else except a friend of
mine flying the same route. Would not have incurred any user fees.


"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
And this is before the user fees are enacted! Outstanding!

Part of the reason that user fees are inevitable is because commercial
aviation is tired of subsidizing small planes. The upcoming Delta
bankruptcy will shine more light on the huge subsidies that GA is
receiving, from the AIP operating and capital grants, to the FAA system
that GA gets to use for free.

The next major GA incident (whether it be another violation of the ADIZ,
or the next high profile crash) will provide opportunity for anti-GA
activists to really pile on. For now, we wait, patiently.

How much money do you think we have paid to bail out TWA, Continental,
United etc...?

On 12 Sep 2005 12:01:18 -0700, "Andrew Sarangan"
wrote in . com::

How much money do you think we have paid to bail out TWA, Continental,
United etc...?

Oh, you mean like federalizing the security screeners, and paying
billions to the families of 9/11 victims in exchange for their
forfeiting their right to sue the airlines, or the direct subsidies?

iAny way you look at it, the elimination of GA would cause major
problems for
the airlines./i

Nope. Not true. You don't need to be an ATP to be a copilot on an
airliner, only a commercial pilot. That takes only 250 hours (and less
under Part 141). Of course more experience is desirable, but it's not
necessary. If we're talking about airliners like the Airbus, which
(according to all my friends who have flown them) handle far more like
Microsoft Flight Sim than like an airplale (right down to the little
joystick with no feedback), the experience is not even particularly
desirable.

You forget that when hiring gets tight, the regionals start taking
people at 500 hours. In much of the world, 250 hours gets you into the
right seat of an airliner even today - and that's without family
connections. You earn the rest of your 1500 hours towards the ATP in
the right seat. In fact, the US is pretty unusual in that someone can
become an ATP without being an airline employee. In Europe, this is
already impossible - to take the ATP checkride, you need 500 hours as
SIC in a crew environment (no, safety pilot doesn't count) so you have
to get the airline job first, before you can get the ATP.

There are already large numbers of flight schools out there, located in
the middle of nowhere, which are quite prepaed to take pilots from zero
to 250-hour CFI/CFII/MEI without any contact with recreational GA (or
real-world flying). They train their own instructors, and the
instructors train the next crop, with maybe a retired (or failed)
airline pilot or two supervising the whole deal. They can keep
supplying the airlines long after there is a 30-mile no-fly zone around
every major city and there is a fee for every flight plan.

Don't kid yourself - the airlines don't need GA, especially not
recreational GA.

Michael