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Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 1st 19, 03:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 11:04:06 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.

I'd like to get a flapped 15 meter, and have been doing a lot of searching and reading on the groups and have kind of narrowed my decision down to an ASW20 or LS3a

I have about 200 hours in gliders all glass, but never anything with flaps, however I also owned and have several hundred hours in a Mooney M20C so have good experience in complex aircraft that require good in flight planning for various aspects of flight.

I was also considering the following, and will list some of my reasons for weeding them out of my choice list.

Ventus B: Great performance, but my understanding from reading (no actual experience) is that they are not forgiving or maybe a better way of putting it, is they require full time attention which can be fatiguing on long flights.

DG 200 or 202, good aircraft but you have to pay annual fees just to buy parts?

Mini Nimbus: also good aircraft, just not up to the same performance level as an ASW20

That kind of leaves the ASW20 or LS3 in this price range and category. Unless I am missing something.

So which would you have and why?
I am leaning towards an ASW20 purchase, but am finding some very well equipped LS3a's in the same price range as a moderately equipped ASW20.

Assuming similar clamshell style trailers and self rigging gear, which is the better buy or which would you have and why?

Also, anyone knowing of an ASW20 or LS3 for sale not already on Wings and Wheels, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks, I know this topic has been brought up before, but I am in the final stages of preparing for a purchase before the 2019 season gets into full swing and would like to get some final advice before pulling the trigger on this purchase.


Don't rule out other options.
Any '20 or LS-3, or Ventus in the price range you are looking at will be a clapped out ship.
For similar money it would be possible to find a ship in much better condition such as an ASW-19, Std Cirrus, Pegesus, DG100 or such. Some of these ships show up having been refinished a few years ago and having a good amount of life before major expense will be needed.
UH
  #12  
Old April 1st 19, 03:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

Agree, you should also consider the S-H Ventus.

The LS-3 is a dream to fly; controls are very harmonic and it is comfortable. It lacks accommodating panel space and it does not "run" as well or land as short as the ASW-2O. That being said, the 20 is more pitch sensitive and will not tolerate poor approach piloting. The 20's thinner airfoil requires more attention and stall respect.

The LS support is iffy and concerning (no offense Cumulus Soaring). Here in the US, you'll have more experience and support with a Schleicher product. The Mayes family @ Williams Soaring, CA are the Schleicher US reps and are very experienced.

Which one? IMO, deciding factors should be damage history, finish condition, instrumentation, and trailer condition.

Having many XC hours in both, my preference is the ASW-20 and especially the 20C. The 20C is worth the extra money.

On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 11:04:06 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.


  #13  
Old April 1st 19, 03:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
SoaringXCellence
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

Unless you're also planning on competing, or trying for records, you should widen your selection. The performance difference is very small between most of the second generation glass ships. Looking at the Johnson reports shows 1-2 points difference, but all of them measured better than 37:1 which is plenty for great XC soaring.

I have flown an H301 Libelle, Pegasus, ASW-20, and currently own a Mini Nimbus C.

The flapped ships are fun and the Peg is very easy to fly. I love the Mini for the landing flaps (which some people don't). Lots of panel space and easy to rig (nothing is as easy as the Libelle. Automatic hook-ups and a very comfortable cockpit (about the same as the Ventus).

Mike B.
  #14  
Old April 1st 19, 04:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael N.
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 9:04:06 PM UTC-6, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.


Thanks, I guess at this point I am looking for "best bang for the buck" in the current marketplace. Including finish and instruments and trailer.

I really cannot go much higher than $25k so I am looking for a complete package (good finish, trialer, instrumentation package) for cross country.
I do want a flapped ship, as again I have lots of hours in complex aircraft, and I want the ability to get into short fields on landing out if I have too.

I am reconsidering now the Ventus B, also the DG202, as well as the previously mentioned LS3 or LS3a, and ASW20 (a,b, or c)

In my price range I do see an ASW20a and a Ventus B (maybe) without winglets. So I am also trying to see if winglets are still available for the 20 or Ventus.

Thanks for the feedback, please keep it coming.
Mike

  #15  
Old April 1st 19, 04:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one andwhy?

....And 511M is one sweet flying machine.Â* I know this as a former owner
who added about 650 hours to her clock.

On 3/31/2019 10:24 PM, Steve Leonard wrote:
For the record, you guys all like to bash on them about their "annual fee". It is 245 Euro. Yeah, the other manufacturers aren't doing this, but I sure as heck wouldn't rule out a plane I am looking at spending upwards of 25K on because there is an extra $275 per year in expense of ownership. Heck, you might even find parts are cheaper for supporting an older LS under contract than an older Schleicher. Maybe not. But I wouldn't rule them out just because of that little bit.

YMMV,
Steve Leonard
LS6 serial 6037
N511M
Most recent sailplane to have been flown by a US Pilot (not me!) to a World Championship.


--
Dan, 5J
  #16  
Old April 1st 19, 05:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 8:20:28 AM UTC-7, Michael N. wrote:
On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 9:04:06 PM UTC-6, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.


Thanks, I guess at this point I am looking for "best bang for the buck" in the current marketplace. Including finish and instruments and trailer.

I really cannot go much higher than $25k so I am looking for a complete package (good finish, trialer, instrumentation package) for cross country.
I do want a flapped ship, as again I have lots of hours in complex aircraft, and I want the ability to get into short fields on landing out if I have too.

I am reconsidering now the Ventus B, also the DG202, as well as the previously mentioned LS3 or LS3a, and ASW20 (a,b, or c)

In my price range I do see an ASW20a and a Ventus B (maybe) without winglets. So I am also trying to see if winglets are still available for the 20 or Ventus.

Thanks for the feedback, please keep it coming.
Mike


Mosquito should be another candidate.
You may find that for $25k you'll end up with something other than those two choices. But if you insist, the LS could be the best of the two for that price.
If you want "ready to fly", perhaps look at the overall condition of the glider and trailer before performance. That would include paperwork.
Jim
  #17  
Old April 1st 19, 06:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael N.
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

As a secondary question, how well do winglets, or 16.6 extensions help the flying qualities of the Ventus B?
  #18  
Old April 1st 19, 07:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

First questions nobody asked.......
Where are you flying?
How serious?

I can only comment on 20's........
20a, fantastic flaps......early flying season, come in very high on final, do full landing flaps and full dive brakes.......drops like a homesick brick.......
But, elevator is not auto connect.......know of a ship trashed because of this.
A 20A or C, limited to 9pounds..........fine if eastern thermals. Screwed if fast conditions.
Sucks to western thermals or ridge......trust me, I have been beat in eastern ridge in a nationals......I had local knowledge so made time on gap climbs, watched heavier gliders run by on long ridge runs. Yes, ran against "DG in a LS6" and,others.
Flying ridges or western thermals, maybe a 20B.
All the 20's can be helped with winglets.
I have my preference, but I am biased partly because I was "beta boy" on lots of testing for 20 and 24 winglets.

In your price range.....I will say a standard AS ship......partly because if you learned on a SGS, control harmony is similar.
I can't state for other glass single seaters.......

As stated before, in your price range, a flapped ship is likely borderline a rat.
Bad?.......ask Daniel on his performance on a "rat ship" I know of last year.
Crazed surface THAT IS SMOOTH can do well.
Most of a result is the "nut behind the stick".

Just my opinion.
Best I ever did was first page on the SSA ranking list.
I won't say I am a "mover or shaker"....,,
  #19  
Old April 1st 19, 08:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

With 200 hours I would stay away from the Ventus w/o winglets unless your instructor says you have plenty of extra bandwidth available while flying and your thermalling skills are already very sound. It's not a glider that you want to learn how to fly XC with.
OTOH, if you are flying in the western US and know for sure you are in it for the long term and only want to buy and fly one glider in the next 10 years and your enthusiasm is high, the Ventus might be a good choice. But it will take you longer to get better at all of the XC skills than if you bought an LS-4 and flew it for 200 hours XC first. As was said, some of the unappreciated but very valuable things about the Ventus are auto hookups, pretty light wings, and it's easy to put water in it. Just pour water into the wing from a hose with meter attached. And it really, really goes. It's the perfect glider for me because I've flown a lot and I can't afford the next generation.
Buy a 4 or 3 or Mosquito or Pegasus or the like, fly it for 200-300 hrs. XC, then buy a Ventus. The numbers are only slightly different but the performance is dramatic and well worth it in my opinion, particularly with water..
An Oudie2 or similar is a very powerful easy to add computer sufficient for navigation. The radio is also important, should be clear and have a functional PTT.
And you should probably consider adding FLARM if it doesn't already have it..
And don't buy anything without a sound Komet or Cobra trailer unless you have hangar access.
Pretty tough to have all that and a good finish for $25K but I wish you success. 10 years ago it was impossible!
  #20  
Old April 1st 19, 08:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael N.
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 12:11:36 PM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
First questions nobody asked.......
Where are you flying?
How serious?

I can only comment on 20's........
20a, fantastic flaps......early flying season, come in very high on final, do full landing flaps and full dive brakes.......drops like a homesick brick.......
But, elevator is not auto connect.......know of a ship trashed because of this.
A 20A or C, limited to 9pounds..........fine if eastern thermals. Screwed if fast conditions.
Sucks to western thermals or ridge......trust me, I have been beat in eastern ridge in a nationals......I had local knowledge so made time on gap climbs, watched heavier gliders run by on long ridge runs. Yes, ran against "DG in a LS6" and,others.
Flying ridges or western thermals, maybe a 20B.
All the 20's can be helped with winglets.
I have my preference, but I am biased partly because I was "beta boy" on lots of testing for 20 and 24 winglets.

In your price range.....I will say a standard AS ship......partly because if you learned on a SGS, control harmony is similar.
I can't state for other glass single seaters.......

As stated before, in your price range, a flapped ship is likely borderline a rat.
Bad?.......ask Daniel on his performance on a "rat ship" I know of last year.
Crazed surface THAT IS SMOOTH can do well.
Most of a result is the "nut behind the stick".


Yep, agreed I am a nut :-)
How serious? I don't know yet, to be honest. I'd like to compete in club class when I have some time built up.
I can't afford to buy or sell gliders over and over, so my intent is "best bang for the buck" and flapped for the short field landing capabilities. I'm not afraid of the workload of flaps, as I noted I have some hours in Mooney's and other complex high performance aircraft that require concentration and planning especially on approach to land.

I will be flying mountain, as I am part time in Utah. I learned out of Minden, flying wave and mountain.
I had heard that the ASW20 (a-c) were good for mountains due to the semi-flexible wing design?

Thanks for any further feedback...
Mike
 




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