Replicas....a few questions

In article ,
(Wright1902Glider) wrote:

And I would seriously argue the originality of the control system imparted by
any of the aero club machines, pre or post Ft. Myer. By 1908, the Wright
wing-warping system was common knowledge.

The AEA machines didn't use wing warping. Santos-Dumont independently
achieved controlled powered heavier-than-air flight in France without
wing-warping.

--
Paul Baechler

Except for those "drag alieron" / "adjustable wingtip" / "whatever they were
calling them" thingies on the Silver Dart, and one other earlier machine whose
name escapes me... unless you have definative photographic evidence to the
contrary.

And lets not forget that our old pal Curtiss used a "black box" actuating
mechanism on his early machines... I am assuming that you know what that was
and how it worked. And all of this happened in what year? 1906? 1907? 1908
even? Need I remind you that the Wrights were flying figure-8's for 45+
minutes by 1905?

And as for Petit Santos, well the 14 bis did manage to get into the air in 1906
(correct me if that date is wrong) by using 5 times the horsepower of the
Wright machine. BUT, it only "flew" for about 60 meters and it couldn't turn.


Harry

In article ,
(Wright1902Glider) wrote:

Except for those "drag alieron" / "adjustable wingtip" / "whatever they were
calling them" thingies on the Silver Dart, and one other earlier machine whose
name escapes me... unless you have definative photographic evidence to the
contrary.

Ailerons are not wing warping.

And lets not forget that our old pal Curtiss used a "black box" actuating
mechanism on his early machines... I am assuming that you know what that was
and how it worked.

Perhaps you'd care to explain this. I've not run across it in the
literature, and have never seen photographic evidence of it.

And all of this happened in what year? 1906? 1907? 1908
even? Need I remind you that the Wrights were flying figure-8's for 45+
minutes by 1905?

It's a pity they never really advanced beyond that.

--
Paul Baechler

Paul,

I regret that I don't have more time to research these subjects more
thoroughly. I do enjoy debating aviation history, especially from this era.
I'll have more time to get you specifics of Curtiss's "black box" in a few
weeks. Schedule's pretty full right now.

The short explination of the "black box" was that it was a sheet metal box,
painted black, and positioned behind Curtiss's seat near his shoulders. Its
prupose was reported to be to hide a yoke similar in construction to the Wright
hip-cradle device. The yoke was actuated by movements of the pilot's
shoulders, rather than hips, but essentially served the same function of
actuating the roll-control system. I don't know the specific aircraft that it
was used on off the top of my head. There are more details in The Papers of
Wilbur and Orville Wright (McFarland, 1953), and I'll try to look them up as
soon as I have a chance. There's also an interesting section in that text
which includes Lorin Wright's letters to Orville regarding his recon. mission
to gather info. on Curtiss's rebuilt (modified) Langley #5.

I must admit that my knowledge of this particular period of Wright history is
not as strong as my knowledge of 1893-1902. I've spent the last 7 years
conducting research toward building my 1902 glider and have had little time to
go much farther with serious depth.

What is regrettable about the Wrights' story is that Wilbur died at such a
critical stage in the development of the machine. If the brothers had been
able to sell the flyer as a military secret in 1906 as they planned, certainly
they would have made more improvements in 1906 & 1907. Thier focus post 1908
seems to have been on making the planes more stable and more efficient.
However, I can personally tell you that its almost impossible to try to build
and fly that type of machine by oneself, or even with semi-skilled help.
Orville needed Wilbur as much as Wilbur needed Orville. Without the two of
them, the basic problems of control and efficient lift may have taken another
50 years to discover. Both Curtiss and Bleriot, as well as Voisin and Farman
added to the science, but before the Wrights, they were either on the wrong
track, are were not on the track at all.

Without a patent, any demonstration would have made the machine fair game for
copying... if not in the US, then in european countries. The patent cleared in
1906. Should they have flown? Probably. they would have likely sold thier
machines much easier and much sooner. But I can understand thier point of view
as well. Once seen, the machine is very easy to copy. And why would anyone
pay for an original Wright when they could build a copy themselves?

Its easy for us to judge history because we know the outcome and the results of
everyones actions. Its quite a bit harder to figure out things as you go
along. We should also be very careful in assuming that what we think we know
about history is actually correct. I've found (by doing) that a great deal of
recorded information was simply incorrect. Usually because it was recorded
later, or recorded third-hand. The real truth is that no one living was an
actual witness to any of the events or even the machines that we have been
discussing. Whats left of the original aircraft are at this point - restored.
And I've found that a great deal of original information (and parts) gets lost
during well-meaning restorations. So no one today can point to the Wright
1903, or 1905 and say "Yes, that's exactly how it was." Ditto any existing
early Curtiss machines. That's part of what makes historical debate fun, but
its also kind of sad.

Another thing that my project has tought me is that the Wrights, Curtiss,
Chanute, Langley, Avery, Herring, Montgomery, Lilenthal, etc. were all real men
with real talents and real faults. Our histories have a great tendancy to
homoginize thier lives into easily digestable characatures (sp?) and stories.
Real truths are almost always infinately more complicated. And often times,
they reveal things which most people would rather have swept under the rug.
Sometimes our heros turn out to be paranoid geeks. And sometimes they turn out
to be underhanded opportunists. But usually they turn out to be a complex
blend... much like ourselves.