Berlin Airlift, IFR

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:19:44 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"John Godwin" wrote in message
8.3.50...

In those days, it was GCA


It still is.



GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.

That is today's definition. During the Berlin Airlift GCA meant
azimuth, range, and elevation radars.

wrote:

On Feb 11, 9:35 pm, John Godwin wrote:

Sam Spade wrote in news:l1Qzh.11876$c%2.1737
:




It wasn't PAR?

In those days, it was GCA

--



Please explain the difference between GCA and PAR.......


John Hairell )
former GCA/PAR controller


In the days of the Berlin Airlift GCA was what we call PAR today. The
term PAR did not exist then. Today GCA means both PAR and ASR approach
procedures.

In message , Thomas Borchert
writes
John,

This was the
Cold War, the planes were based in England and more eastern locations:
Holland, Fance, West Germany...


England? First I hear about that. West Germany is were they came from,
it was a really short run for most. Flying boats took off in Hamburg
harbour, landing on the Wannsee.

The flying boats were RAF Sunderlands, used for carrying salt because
their hulls were corrosion-proof.

This site contains a map showing the main bases and the inbound/outbound
routes used for flying supplies to Berlin in Operation Plainfare (RAF)
and Operation Vittles (USAF). Lots of details about the USAF, with a few
passing mentions of the RAF. GCA is mentioned under The Airlift Route
Pattern.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/Berlin_fl...inAirlift.html

--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

On 12 Feb, 18:27, Peter Twydell wrote:
In message , Thomas Borchert
writesJohn,

This was the
Cold War, the planes were based in England and more eastern locations:
Holland, Fance, West Germany...

England? First I hear about that. West Germany is were they came from,
it was a really short run for most. Flying boats took off in Hamburg
harbour, landing on the Wannsee.

The flying boats were RAF Sunderlands, used for carrying salt because
their hulls were corrosion-proof.

This site contains a map showing the main bases and the inbound/outbound
routes used for flying supplies to Berlin in Operation Plainfare (RAF)
and Operation Vittles (USAF). Lots of details about the USAF, with a few
passing mentions of the RAF. GCA is mentioned under The Airlift Route
Pattern.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/Berlin_fl...inAirlift.html

--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

Peter, ISTR (from reading a Sunderland book 30 odd years ago) the
Sunderlands also carried Coal

cheers

guy

"guy" wrote:

On 12 Feb, 18:27, Peter Twydell wrote:
In message , Thomas Borchert
writesJohn,

This was the
Cold War, the planes were based in England and more eastern locations:
Holland, Fance, West Germany...

England? First I hear about that. West Germany is were they came from,
it was a really short run for most. Flying boats took off in Hamburg
harbour, landing on the Wannsee.

The flying boats were RAF Sunderlands, used for carrying salt because
their hulls were corrosion-proof.

This site contains a map showing the main bases and the inbound/outbound
routes used for flying supplies to Berlin in Operation Plainfare (RAF)
and Operation Vittles (USAF). Lots of details about the USAF, with a few
passing mentions of the RAF. GCA is mentioned under The Airlift Route
Pattern.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/Berlin_fl...inAirlift.html

--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

Peter, ISTR (from reading a Sunderland book 30 odd years ago) the
Sunderlands also carried Coal


I think that wherever they could stick a sack of coal in - in it
went. Those hungry power stations needed to be kept fed.

Eugene L Griessel

Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings...they did
it by killing all those who opposed them.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.


A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum
altitudes.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.


A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum
altitudes.


Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum
altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to
minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed
terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
. ..

GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.


A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum
altitudes.


Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum
altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to
minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed
terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Don't feel too bad Ed, Stevie's just splitting hairs again.

From an FAA controller's standpoint recommended altitudes on ASR approaches
are only provided on pilot request (see FAAO 7110.65 5-11-1).

However IIRC, either AFR 60-5 or AFCSR 60-5 required USAF final controllers
to provide them all the time even without a specific request so a USAF stick
actuator would seldom (if ever) have a need to split that particular hair.

Recommended altitudes were routinely issued until an accident at Cleveland.
Then it was on request only.
Al

"KP" nospam@please wrote in message
. ..
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.


A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum
altitudes.


Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum
altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to
minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed
terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Don't feel too bad Ed, Stevie's just splitting hairs again.

From an FAA controller's standpoint recommended altitudes on ASR
approaches are only provided on pilot request (see FAAO 7110.65 5-11-1).

However IIRC, either AFR 60-5 or AFCSR 60-5 required USAF final
controllers to provide them all the time even without a specific request
so a USAF stick actuator would seldom (if ever) have a need to split that
particular hair.

" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 11, 9:35 pm, John Godwin wrote:
Sam Spade wrote in news:l1Qzh.11876$c%2.1737
@newsfe12.phx:



It wasn't PAR?

In those days, it was GCA

--


Please explain the difference between GCA and PAR.......


PAR is part of the GCA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_Approach_Radar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-Controlled_Approach

I worked as a Radio Repairman at Williams AFB in the late 70's . Our GCA
was located beside the Control tower. It had 2 PAR Positions and three ASR
positions. It does not actually control airspace it only provides guidance
for landing. If a GCA like the one at Williams was to control airspace it
would not be a GCA it would be a RAPCON (Runway APproach CONtrol)

A brief note on ASR approaches. ASR does not determine Altitude
information. That is coming from the Aircrafts altimeter through the
aircraft transponder and the decoded by the radars IFF reciever which then
places that information on the Controllors ASR scope. Most of you already
know this but I though I'd add it for those who don't




John Hairell )
former GCA/PAR controller