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#1
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When do controls return to neutral?
In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural
tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't holding them and when you are on the ground? Do they have a tendency to return to exactly neutral in flight if you release them in level flight? The reason I ask is that sometimes the controls I use in simulation don't snap back to exactly neutral when I release them, and I'm trying to determine whether this is more realistic or less realistic with respect to a real aircaft. I suppose it depends on the aircraft, but what is the usual case? And if you happen to know how it behaves specifically on a Baron or an A36, I'd be particularly interested to know that. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#2
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When do controls return to neutral?
Usually, in a non-aerobatic plane, ailerons and rudder will return
close to neutral. Elevator will go to its trim position. Several of the classic planes I've flow do not have this tendency, so it really can go either way, but most planes today are designed to be easy to fly. -Robert, CFII Mxsmanic wrote: In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't holding them and when you are on the ground? Do they have a tendency to return to exactly neutral in flight if you release them in level flight? The reason I ask is that sometimes the controls I use in simulation don't snap back to exactly neutral when I release them, and I'm trying to determine whether this is more realistic or less realistic with respect to a real aircaft. I suppose it depends on the aircraft, but what is the usual case? And if you happen to know how it behaves specifically on a Baron or an A36, I'd be particularly interested to know that. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#3
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When do controls return to neutral?
Robert M. Gary writes:
Usually, in a non-aerobatic plane, ailerons and rudder will return close to neutral. Elevator will go to its trim position. Several of the classic planes I've flow do not have this tendency, so it really can go either way, but most planes today are designed to be easy to fly. Is there any tendency for the control surfaces to set in positions slightly off neutral? For example, if you have to use rudder a lot to counter torque on every flight, is there any tendency of the rudder over time to stay a little bit on that side? My joystick seems to do this, very slightly, and since it is mechanical like control surfaces, I wonder if things like a rudder might do the same. Not a very big deflection, of course, but enough that you might notice it in otherwise perfect level flight (although with the engine running, I suppose there would always be torque acting more strongly in the opposite direction, so how would you know?). -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#4
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When do controls return to neutral?
Mxsmanic wrote: Robert M. Gary writes: Is there any tendency for the control surfaces to set in positions slightly off neutral? For example, if you have to use rudder a lot to counter torque on every flight, is there any tendency of the rudder over time to stay a little bit on that side? Usage doesn't cause this. However with age sometimes a plane doesn't fly as straight as it used to. If the plane isn't flying straight (i.e. the ball isn't in the middle when you take your feet off the rudders) you can adjust it. On my plane there is a bolt that adjust the throw but a lot of planes just have metal trim tabs. What you are asking about is referred to as "rigging" and is one of the great dark arts in aviation. The manual will tell you how to do it but only a few really good A&P's can really get your bird (especially a more complex one like mine) to fly straight. Right now my plane slips to the right about 1/2 ball when I put the gear out. Not sure why, it didn't used to. With rigging you usually want to seek out an A&P familiar with your plane (especially if you have rigging wires, don't ever let a generic A&P touch rigging wires if you fly a classic). -Robert |
#5
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When do controls return to neutral?
In article . com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote: Mxsmanic wrote: Robert M. Gary writes: Is there any tendency for the control surfaces to set in positions slightly off neutral? For example, if you have to use rudder a lot to counter torque on every flight, is there any tendency of the rudder over time to stay a little bit on that side? Usage doesn't cause this. However with age sometimes a plane doesn't fly as straight as it used to. If the plane isn't flying straight (i.e. the ball isn't in the middle when you take your feet off the rudders) you can adjust it. On my plane there is a bolt that adjust the throw but a lot of planes just have metal trim tabs. What you are asking about is referred to as "rigging" and is one of the great dark arts in aviation. The manual will tell you how to do it but only a few really good A&P's can really get your bird (especially a more complex one like mine) to fly straight. Right now my plane slips to the right about 1/2 ball when I put the gear out. Not sure why, it didn't used to. With rigging you usually want to seek out an A&P familiar with your plane (especially if you have rigging wires, don't ever let a generic A&P touch rigging wires if you fly a classic). Aircraft without adjustable rudder trim have a ground adjustable piece of metal (a "tab") attached to the trailing edge of the rudder. This tab is bent at an angle to the plane of the rudder so that the aircraft will fly with no yaw (theoretically) at "cruise" speed. Change the airspeed and the aircraft will yaw right or left. |
#6
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When do controls return to neutral?
Yeah - essentially what you're talking about is the fundamental point
of trim devices on modern aircraft. Neutral position is a bit of a 'bad' term here, because unlike a simulator's joystick, there is no defined "Central" location for a yoke. Yes, of course wing's level is fairly 'central', but for rudder and elevator, there is quite a bit of play as to where 'neutral' is (where neutral is fundamentally defined as the point at which the controls naturally go when you apply no force to them). The "neutral point" described above is is set by your trimming mechanisms. In my PA-28-140, I have 3 mechanisms to trim the plane - I have the pitch trim handle, I have a rudder trim mechanism (which actually just manipulates the pedals) and I have the ability to control my fuel burn on one side or the other to trim for roll. This is one of the areas where flying a real plane is fundamentally different than flying with a computer joystick. with a computer joystick, there is always a "center point", and trim is simulated by having the aircraft turn to one side or the other while the joystick is in the center point. In a real aircraft, the physical point where the control's center themselves varies based on trim, but AOA effect of having the controls at any given point is usually the same. (I.E, having the yoke 3" out from the panel will try to move the aircraft towards the same AOA, regardless if this is 'trimmed as neutral' and I can take my hand off, or the aircraft is trimmed for another speed and the yoke is pushing against my hand). Also note that this is all very delibrate- The anti-servo tab on a PA-28's tail is explicitly designed to provide this very type of tactile feedback - that's its whole point. On Nov 7, 3:18 pm, Mxsmanic wrote: In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't holding them and when you are on the ground? Do they have a tendency to return to exactly neutral in flight if you release them in level flight? The reason I ask is that sometimes the controls I use in simulation don't snap back to exactly neutral when I release them, and I'm trying to determine whether this is more realistic or less realistic with respect to a real aircaft. I suppose it depends on the aircraft, but what is the usual case? And if you happen to know how it behaves specifically on a Baron or an A36, I'd be particularly interested to know that. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#7
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When do controls return to neutral?
On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 00:18:15 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:
In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't holding them and when you are on the ground? Generally, no. The weight of the elevators usually put them in the full-down position. Ailerons may be one way or the other, depending upon the wind, as will the rudder. Rudders often have springs associated with them (via the nosewheel or tailwheel controls) and have a better tendency to go back to near-zero. Do they have a tendency to return to exactly neutral in flight if you release them in level flight? Depends on how you define "neutral." If you define "neutral" as "faired with the airfoil they're part of" the answer depends on the loading and trim condition of the aircraft. If you define "neutral" as "in position for straight and level flight," the answer is, "generally no," depending, again, on the loading and trim condition. If you define "neutral" as "least pressure on the controls," the answer is, "always." Keep in mind that most airplanes do not have cockpit indication of control position. We can look towards the wing and make a pretty good estimate of the aileron position, but the elevators and rudders aren't easily visible from the cockpit of many airplanes. Even those planes where they are visible, you're looking at them from such an angle where the precise position (e.g, zero degrees vs. 5 degrees) is difficult to determine. My airplane has differential gearing on the ailerons (downgoing aileron doesn't move as far as the upgoing one) so despite having a good view, it makes it a bit more complicated. Ron Wanttaja |
#8
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When do controls return to neutral?
Mxsmanic wrote: In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't holding them and when you are on the ground? Do they have a tendency to return to exactly neutral in flight if you release them in level flight? The reason I ask is that sometimes the controls I use in simulation don't snap back to exactly neutral when I release them, and I'm trying to determine whether this is more realistic or less realistic with respect to a real aircaft. I suppose it depends on the aircraft, but what is the usual case? And if you happen to know how it behaves specifically on a Baron or an A36, I'd be particularly interested to know that. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Its different for every aircraft. Generally cessnas mooneys and pipers will return to neutral on the rudder and elevators but the aleirons will go to trim setting. Some other aircraft will stay at last input position, or "positive" |
#9
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When do controls return to neutral?
If it slips with gear extended, probably a door is not
aligned and is acting as a rudder. "Robert M. Gary" wrote in message ups.com... | | Mxsmanic wrote: | Robert M. Gary writes: | Is there any tendency for the control surfaces to set in positions | slightly off neutral? For example, if you have to use rudder a lot to | counter torque on every flight, is there any tendency of the rudder | over time to stay a little bit on that side? | | Usage doesn't cause this. However with age sometimes a plane doesn't | fly as straight as it used to. If the plane isn't flying straight (i.e. | the ball isn't in the middle when you take your feet off the rudders) | you can adjust it. On my plane there is a bolt that adjust the throw | but a lot of planes just have metal trim tabs. | What you are asking about is referred to as "rigging" and is one of the | great dark arts in aviation. The manual will tell you how to do it but | only a few really good A&P's can really get your bird (especially a | more complex one like mine) to fly straight. Right now my plane slips | to the right about 1/2 ball when I put the gear out. Not sure why, it | didn't used to. With rigging you usually want to seek out an A&P | familiar with your plane (especially if you have rigging wires, don't | ever let a generic A&P touch rigging wires if you fly a classic). | -Robert | |
#10
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When do controls return to neutral?
EridanMan writes:
Neutral position is a bit of a 'bad' term here, because unlike a simulator's joystick, there is no defined "Central" location for a yoke. Yes, of course wing's level is fairly 'central', but for rudder and elevator, there is quite a bit of play as to where 'neutral' is (where neutral is fundamentally defined as the point at which the controls naturally go when you apply no force to them). I was kind of thinking along those lines. So I presume that I need not fret about not necessarily having an obvious neutral position in the sim. If I understand correctly, in a real aircraft, it all just depends on circumstances, and you don't have to know or care about any "exact" neutral (?). The "neutral point" described above is is set by your trimming mechanisms. In my PA-28-140, I have 3 mechanisms to trim the plane - I have the pitch trim handle, I have a rudder trim mechanism (which actually just manipulates the pedals) and I have the ability to control my fuel burn on one side or the other to trim for roll. Do you have a marked "zero point" for the trim, or do you just trim until it feels right for the circumstances, and then trim again the next time as required, without worrying about whether the trim is truly "zero" or not? This is one of the areas where flying a real plane is fundamentally different than flying with a computer joystick. with a computer joystick, there is always a "center point", and trim is simulated by having the aircraft turn to one side or the other while the joystick is in the center point. In a real aircraft, the physical point where the control's center themselves varies based on trim, but AOA effect of having the controls at any given point is usually the same. (I.E, having the yoke 3" out from the panel will try to move the aircraft towards the same AOA, regardless if this is 'trimmed as neutral' and I can take my hand off, or the aircraft is trimmed for another speed and the yoke is pushing against my hand). So in a real aircraft, a different trim position also represents a different yoke position? That seems logical. I wonder how fly-by-wire aircraft handle this. Also note that this is all very delibrate- The anti-servo tab on a PA-28's tail is explicitly designed to provide this very type of tactile feedback - that's its whole point. I read that a drawback to Cirrus aircraft is that they use springs for feedback, so it's hard to tell where the control surfaces actually are. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
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