best US jet vs Russian jets?

Please you will only cloud their pea brains with facts, sir.

Try again, Bush was fully qualified in F-102s. That's hardly "rudimentary."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired












The Durango 95 purred away real horrorshow. A nice warm vibratey feeling all
through your guttiwuts.

Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.

Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.

This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've probably
sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came real
close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
Russia wouldn't sell anything either.

"ville terminale" wrote in message
om...
i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

"Stinky Pete" wrote in message
et...
Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.

Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.

This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
Rafale can seem to sell for diddly.In the past 10 years, they've probably
sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them.

Well now all 3 are relatively new aircraft and only the Rafale is
likely to be offered to Syria, Iraq, Libya or Iran

Saab have sold around 40 Gripen to SA and Hungary, and are
negotiating with the Brazilians. I rather doubt that they would sell
to Israel at all.

As for Eurofighter the current no of orders is more than double that
for F-22 at UK 250, Italy 130, Germany 130 and Spain 90
with export orders from Austria and interest from Singapore


Germany came real
close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
Russia wouldn't sell anything either.


This is a silly thing to say when you consider the large number of nations
operating Sukhoi and Mig aircraft.

Keith

Keith Willshaw wrote:

"Stinky Pete" wrote in message
et...

Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.

Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.

This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
Rafale can seem to sell for diddly.In the past 10 years, they've probably
sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them.


Well now all 3 are relatively new aircraft and only the Rafale is
likely to be offered to Syria, Iraq, Libya or Iran

Saab have sold around 40 Gripen to SA and Hungary, and are
negotiating with the Brazilians. I rather doubt that they would sell
to Israel at all.

As for Eurofighter the current no of orders is more than double that
for F-22 at UK 250, Italy 130, Germany 130 and Spain 90
with export orders from Austria and interest from Singapore



Germany came real
close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
Russia wouldn't sell anything either.



This is a silly thing to say when you consider the large number of nations
operating Sukhoi and Mig aircraft.

Keith


Whee... It's just as I wrote in the follow-up to Stinky's post!! :-)

Only Keith, ...
Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
military, fighter, jets in the near future?

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote in message
...
Keith Willshaw wrote:


Whee... It's just as I wrote in the follow-up to Stinky's post!! :-)

Only Keith, ...
Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
military, fighter, jets in the near future?


1-3 years probably not beyond that definitely.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote in message
...

Only Keith, ...
Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
military, fighter, jets in the near future?


1-3 years probably not beyond that definitely.

I wonder if they'll get to pick what they want...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Stinky Pete" wrote in message
et...
Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.

Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the
Balkans,
Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.

This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
Rafale can seem to sell for diddly.In the past 10 years, they've
probably
sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them.

Well now all 3 are relatively new aircraft and only the Rafale is
likely to be offered to Syria, Iraq, Libya or Iran


Well now, offering and selling are two different things, ain't they. The
Frogs are offering the Rafale to Indonesia but that's a long way to a sale.
I don't think that plane has ever gotten any export orders.

Saab have sold around 40 Gripen to SA and Hungary, and are
negotiating with the Brazilians. I rather doubt that they would sell
to Israel at all.


I believe the Hungarian planes are leased.

As for Eurofighter the current no of orders is more than double that
for F-22 at UK 250, Italy 130, Germany 130 and Spain 90
with export orders from Austria and interest from Singapore


Germany just barely avoided chopping its order.
JSF is the Faberge egg of fighters. Not many can afford them. So why not
compare the JSF? JSF will sell literally thousands of aircraft. The second
batch of Euroblighters will stall in contract negotiations for most if not
all of this year. It seems the lovey-dovey partners can't agree on what
weapons systems to put in and how much they will cost. So the numbers you
mention above are a long way from reality. JSF will probably surpass those
numbers easily...and its not even in production yet.


Germany came real
close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
Russia wouldn't sell anything either.


This is a silly thing to say when you consider the large number of nations
operating Sukhoi and Mig aircraft.


Old ones. At some point though, India will have crashed all the old ones and
then they'll have to buy new.

Keith

"Stinky Pete" wrote in message
news

Germany just barely avoided chopping its order.

A miss is as good as a mile

JSF is the Faberge egg of fighters. Not many can afford them.

Its a bargaing compared to the F-22


So why not
compare the JSF? JSF will sell literally thousands of aircraft.

Because the JSF is a fine STRIKE aircraft and passable fighter.
Its an F-16 replacement rather than an upgrade for the F-15

The second
batch of Euroblighters will stall in contract negotiations for most if not
all of this year. It seems the lovey-dovey partners can't agree on what
weapons systems to put in and how much they will cost. So the numbers you
mention above are a long way from reality. JSF will probably surpass those
numbers easily...and its not even in production yet.


Quite so but in the RAF JSF will be replacing the Harrier not
the Tornado F3


Germany came real
close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for
India,
Russia wouldn't sell anything either.


This is a silly thing to say when you consider the large number of
nations
operating Sukhoi and Mig aircraft.


Old ones. At some point though, India will have crashed all the old ones
and
then they'll have to buy new.


Su-30's seem to be selling rather better than F-22's in the export market

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...

Saab have sold around 40 Gripen to SA and Hungary, and are
negotiating with the Brazilians.

But it's almost sure they won't sell the Gripen here. Competitors to
replace the aging Mirage IIIE's based in Anápolis are the Su-35, SAAB
Gripen, F-16 and the Miragge 2000-5 (let's forget the MiG-29). Seems
like Air Force's aircraft of choice is the Su-35 and the "political"
choice is the Mirage 2000-5. The Mirage is built by Dassault, who is
one of the members of the european consortium who owns 20% of EMBRAER,
which is a strong political "card in the sleeve". OTOH, magazines and
newspapers say the russians are offering full tech transfer, including
of weapons, and a very stron economical "compensation". The Gripen has
been considered too short-legged and subject to restritions by the US
(engine, etc...).

Final decision should come out in March, unless it is postponed for
the 200th time. Let's see :-)

"Stinky Pete" wrote in message . net...
Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.

Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.

This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've probably
sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came real
close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
Russia wouldn't sell anything either.

Malaysia's Arms Purchases Raise Eyebrows
by BARADAN KUPPUSAMY
KUALA LUMPUR — When Russian President Vladimir Putin flew home on Aug
7 after a two-day visit to Malaysia, he left 900 million U.S. dollars
richer and confident that Russia had finally pried opened a rich and
yet untapped South-east Asian market for high-technology Russian
weapons.

Malaysia was happy too — to get a squadron of advanced Sukhoi MK30
fighter jets, paying 270 million dollars of the 900 million Sukhoi
deal in palm oil — the country's leading export.

Additionally, Russia will send a Malaysian into space and on the
Experimental Space Station by 2005 — an important psychological
booster for the government.

The Sukhoi MK30s is the latest addition to Malaysia's shopping basket
bristling with powerful and deadly weapons that money can buy — and
all acquired since 2000.

The shopping list includes F/A 18 F fighters from the United States,
battle tanks from Poland, submarines from France, MIG 29s from Russia,
long-range helicopters and Jernas missile defence system from Britain,
heat-seeking missiles from Ukraine, multiple-launch rockets from
several countries.

Also coming up are early warning airborne systems worth 4 billion
ringgit (1.05 bilion dollars).

Officials estimate at 6 billion dollars the cost of these upcoming
purchases, increasingly viewed as Malaysia's arms race vis-à-vis
neighbouring Singapore, the region's most powerful country in military
terms.

"No, there is no an arms race. Malaysia is just upgrading and
modernising its armed forces. It is a process that was delayed for a
long time," said defence analyst Abdul Razak Baginda, executive
director of the Centre for Strategic Studies.

He said that Malaysian military hardware was dangerously becoming
obsolete compared to the sophisticated purchases Singapore was
steadily acquiring.

"Now that the economy is up, the government is completing previously
planned purchases," he told IPS, adding that the purchases were
essential because of the changing regional security environment.

He said Malaysia had battled an internal communist threat and was now
looking outward and arming itself to defend its long shoreline and
far-flung islands.

But Malaysia's purchases are also coming against the backdrop of a
changing security environment. Rather than becoming simplified in the
post-Cold War era, this environment has become more complex what with
the competition for resources, markets and emergence of new threats
like terrorism and re-emergence of old threats like piracy.

The end of the Suharto era in 1998 and the internal breakdown of
Indonesian society, for instance, had been an ominous development for
Malaysia, which shares the Straits of Malacca with Indonesia.

"Although South-east Asian countries are all part of ASEAN
(Association of South-east Asian Nations), except for East Timor,
there are strong undercurrents of tension and suspicion," said a
senior editor of the Asian Defence Journal, who declined to be named.

"Such mistrust has increased with the economic slowdown and intense
competition for resources, especially undersea wealth," he added.

"Tension and mistrust among neighbours in a new and changing
environment is a key reason for the military purchases," he said. "The
regional buying spree is part of the process of modernising and
upgrading of military capabilities to face regional threats."

Among South-east Asian nations, Singapore, Malaysia and to a lesser
extent Thailand are blamed for the arms build-up in the region. Lately
Indonesia too acquired Sukhoi MK30s from Russia.

"Singapore is the better armed nation in South-east Asia and had been
consistent in acquisition even during the 1997 financial crisis," said
Razak Baginda. "The Malaysian modernisation programme was stalled but
has resumed now."

"The acquisition gives the impression that Malaysia is on an arms
buying spree but the truth is that these purchases were planned over
many years," he said. He however agreed that other nations might see
the arms purchases as "catching up" to a advanced Singapore.

"We are all friends in South-east Asia...there are no enemies here,"
said Razak Baginda who is influential with the Malaysian defence
ministry.

South-east Asian countries face new security threats besides
traditional worries like the environment, migration and health issues.
But increasingly, seeing other countries as a potential threat is a
major preoccupation.

"The stable security environment of the region in future is not
assured. Recent developments within and beyond the region will
definitely pose challenges to national security," said Mohamad Apdal,
Malaysia's deputy defence minister. "We need to get our military to
make the transition from fighting communist to conventional warfare
capability."

"This does not mean we are going to war with any country...it is
prudent to prepare an umbrella before it rains," he said.

The change is reflected in the country's defence budget that jumped
nearly threefold from 1.7 billion ringgit (44.7 4 million dollars) in
1981 to 4.8 billion ringgit (1.26 billion dollars) in 2001.

Much of the perception of Malaysia as a threat comes from Singapore,
which was part of Malaysia until the city-state left in acrimony in
1965. Since then, ties have had their ups and downs and both states
fiercely compete for the same markets and foreign investments.

Singapore has always been ahead of Malaysia with mobile firepower and
high technological weapons system, until now.

"Malaysia has narrowed the gap considerably," said Razak Baginda, who
denied that there was an arms race between the two countries. But
looking at the purchase and counter purchase, defence specialists see
just that.

For example, in 1996 Singapore bought four Swedish Sjoormen-class
submarines, the first in the region. Now Malaysia and Indonesia have
ordered their own submarines.

In 1999 Singapore bought multi-role F-16C Fighting Falcons. Malaysia,
Indonesia followed with MIG 29s, F/A 18s and now with the Sukhoi
MK30s.

In March 2000, Singapore bought six French-designed stealth frigates.
Malaysia answered with various anti-ship missiles systems.

To narrow the gap, Malaysia acquired multiple launch rockets.
Singapore bought Apache helicopters and added more when Malaysia
answered with starburst missiles and SAM surface-to-air batteries,
which are effective against low-flying Apache helicopters.

Singapore this year added additional Apaches with enhanced "fire
forget" missiles and all-weather capabilities.

These Singapore purchases have raised eyebrows within South-east Asia
and appear to have unnerved Malaysia, Derek da Cunha, a senior
researcher at the Singapore Institute of Southeast Asian Studies wrote
in a 2002 paper on regional security.

But Malaysia leaders were quick to assure Singapore that the weapons
were purely for defensive purposes.

"We are upgrading our military not because we want to aim at Singapore
or any other country," said Defence Minister Najib Tun Razak on Aug 7.
"We are protecting ourselves from internal and external threats."
(Inter Press Service)

------------------

BM