New Army Aviation Options?

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 05:58:14 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go OTS.


Crank up the output of the MDH line and put out an MD 530FF/AH-6
variant (not a NOTAR) with improved recon gear and arm them with the
GAU-19 like they are using on SOA birds....the production means are
already there, the weapons are already there, the only thing lacking
is what extra electronics and sights you need and how to mount them,
and some sort of self-defense suite.

John Hairell )

"John Hairell" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 05:58:14 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new
aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are
basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs
in any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see
for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go
OTS.


Crank up the output of the MDH line and put out an MD 530FF/AH-6
variant (not a NOTAR) with improved recon gear and arm them with the
GAU-19 like they are using on SOA birds....the production means are
already there, the weapons are already there, the only thing lacking
is what extra electronics and sights you need and how to mount them,
and some sort of self-defense suite.

I kind of discounted the value of already having the MH/AH-6 in service, but
for the light armed scout role you may have a pretty good point here. Given
that elimination of NOTAR, of course.

Brooks


John Hairell )

Assuming Comanche money really stays in Army Aviation (yeah, right), I'd expect
them to look for off-the-shelf twin-engined helicopters rather than fresh
starts.

The Agusta Westland A129 is a dedicated attack helicopter already integrated
with Comanche T800 engines, but I suspect the end cost of a Mongoose with US
systems would be up there with the Tiger. If they're going to go that route,
they should buy the damn Comanche.

It is possible for one helicopter to do both the light attack and light utility
missions. The question is how light is "light," and how much you want to go
offshore. If the Army doesn't care about the US industrial base (The Coast
Guard doesn't.), there are lots of foreign candidates.

Great as it is, I think the single-engined MD600/MH-6 Little Bird is too small
for a lot of Guard missions. In addition to RAID anti-drug patrols, the guard
has to move emergency response teams, and it will probably need secondary
medevac capability - that means you need a good-sized cabin.

With that in mind, the MDHI MD900 would be a good light utility helicopter, and
one made largely in the US (albeit by a Dutch-owned company). NOTAR works
fine; it just wasn't right for the 160th.

The Bell 427 is a possibility, but it's uncomfortably close to the OH-58D and
probably too light and confining for the Guard requirement.

The Agusta-Westland navel Super Lynx is already powered by Comanche T800s, and
a Battlefield Lynx derivative with those engines and a domestic equipment suite
could fill the bill.

The A109 is used for attack and utility missions, but a re-engined version
again seems expensive for what you'd get.

LTV once offered a T800-powered Dauphin as the Panther. That would give you a
pretty expensive French helicopter that could probably do the job. But, again,
it's French.

Sikorsky pitched an AUH-76 long ago and got nowhere. I suspect the Army would
like something smaller, more crashworthy and cheaper to operate.

Likewise, the Bell 412 is old technology and brings with it high operating
costs for what you'd get.

The Agusta Bell AB139 and Bell UH-1Y I think are just too big and too close to
the Black Hawk. I don't think there would be much incentive to buy either one.


So, my choice would be the MD900, at least for the light utility requirement.
You could hang the Little Bird weapons on it to make do with an armed scout of
sorts.

Bear in mind, the Comanche started out filling these same requirements with two
versions. Look at how well the Army handled that.

Frank

"ROTORFRANK" wrote in message
...
Assuming Comanche money really stays in Army Aviation (yeah, right), I'd
expect
them to look for off-the-shelf twin-engined helicopters rather than fresh
starts.

"Yeah, right"? The DoD and president have already signed off on the Army's
plan to reorient the money already budgeted towards Comanche to other Army
aviation needs, haven't they?


The Agusta Westland A129 is a dedicated attack helicopter already
integrated
with Comanche T800 engines, but I suspect the end cost of a Mongoose with
US
systems would be up there with the Tiger. If they're going to go that
route,
they should buy the damn Comanche.

No way it would even approach the cost of Comanche. The weapons suite
already handles US ordnance (Hellfire, TOW 2, and Hydra 70), and some of the
systems are already of US origin (including Honeywell FLIR and helmet
mounted sighting system).


It is possible for one helicopter to do both the light attack and light
utility
missions. The question is how light is "light," and how much you want to
go
offshore. If the Army doesn't care about the US industrial base (The
Coast
Guard doesn't.), there are lots of foreign candidates.

Great as it is, I think the single-engined MD600/MH-6 Little Bird is too
small
for a lot of Guard missions. In addition to RAID anti-drug patrols, the
guard
has to move emergency response teams, and it will probably need secondary
medevac capability - that means you need a good-sized cabin.

Agreed. But I still think that purchasing two separate aircraft, one for the
OH role and one for the LUH role, would be the better option--it also allows
you to "spread the wealth" a bit.


With that in mind, the MDHI MD900 would be a good light utility
helicopter, and
one made largely in the US (albeit by a Dutch-owned company). NOTAR works
fine; it just wasn't right for the 160th.

The Bell 427 is a possibility, but it's uncomfortably close to the OH-58D
and
probably too light and confining for the Guard requirement.

The Agusta-Westland navel Super Lynx is already powered by Comanche
T800s, and
a Battlefield Lynx derivative with those engines and a domestic equipment
suite
could fill the bill.

The A109 is used for attack and utility missions, but a re-engined version
again seems expensive for what you'd get.

LTV once offered a T800-powered Dauphin as the Panther. That would give
you a
pretty expensive French helicopter that could probably do the job. But,
again,
it's French.

Sikorsky pitched an AUH-76 long ago and got nowhere. I suspect the Army
would
like something smaller, more crashworthy and cheaper to operate.

Likewise, the Bell 412 is old technology and brings with it high operating
costs for what you'd get.

Compared to the UH-60? And compared to the aircraft it would replace (the
UH-1H) it is rather cutting edge--twin engine performance, rigid rotor
mount, etc.

Brooks


The Agusta Bell AB139 and Bell UH-1Y I think are just too big and too
close to
the Black Hawk. I don't think there would be much incentive to buy either
one.


So, my choice would be the MD900, at least for the light utility
requirement.
You could hang the Little Bird weapons on it to make do with an armed
scout of
sorts.

Bear in mind, the Comanche started out filling these same requirements
with two
versions. Look at how well the Army handled that.

Frank

On 26 Feb 2004 20:05:18 GMT, (ROTORFRANK) wrote:

Assuming Comanche money really stays in Army Aviation (yeah, right), I'd expect
them to look for off-the-shelf twin-engined helicopters rather than fresh
starts.

The Agusta Westland A129 is a dedicated attack helicopter already integrated
with Comanche T800 engines, but I suspect the end cost of a Mongoose with US
systems would be up there with the Tiger. If they're going to go that route,
they should buy the damn Comanche.

It is possible for one helicopter to do both the light attack and light utility
missions. The question is how light is "light," and how much you want to go
offshore. If the Army doesn't care about the US industrial base (The Coast
Guard doesn't.), there are lots of foreign candidates.
your absolutely wrong about this, the HH-65A maybe French design, but
it is 100% american made. From the engines to the airframe, to the
avionics.
info.
http://www.uscg.mil/d13/dpa/backgrou...rs/dolphin.htm

Great as it is, I think the single-engined MD600/MH-6 Little Bird is too small
for a lot of Guard missions. In addition to RAID anti-drug patrols, the guard
has to move emergency response teams, and it will probably need secondary
medevac capability - that means you need a good-sized cabin.

With that in mind, the MDHI MD900 would be a good light utility helicopter, and
one made largely in the US (albeit by a Dutch-owned company). NOTAR works
fine; it just wasn't right for the 160th.

The Bell 427 is a possibility, but it's uncomfortably close to the OH-58D and
probably too light and confining for the Guard requirement.

The Agusta-Westland navel Super Lynx is already powered by Comanche T800s, and
a Battlefield Lynx derivative with those engines and a domestic equipment suite
could fill the bill.

The A109 is used for attack and utility missions, but a re-engined version
again seems expensive for what you'd get.

LTV once offered a T800-powered Dauphin as the Panther. That would give you a
pretty expensive French helicopter that could probably do the job. But, again,
it's French.

Sikorsky pitched an AUH-76 long ago and got nowhere. I suspect the Army would
like something smaller, more crashworthy and cheaper to operate.

Likewise, the Bell 412 is old technology and brings with it high operating
costs for what you'd get.

The Agusta Bell AB139 and Bell UH-1Y I think are just too big and too close to
the Black Hawk. I don't think there would be much incentive to buy either one.


So, my choice would be the MD900, at least for the light utility requirement.
You could hang the Little Bird weapons on it to make do with an armed scout of
sorts.

Bear in mind, the Comanche started out filling these same requirements with two
versions. Look at how well the Army handled that.

Frank

"Lyle" wrote in message
...
On 26 Feb 2004 20:05:18 GMT, (ROTORFRANK) wrote:

Assuming Comanche money really stays in Army Aviation (yeah, right), I'd
expect
them to look for off-the-shelf twin-engined helicopters rather than fresh
starts.

The Agusta Westland A129 is a dedicated attack helicopter already
integrated
with Comanche T800 engines, but I suspect the end cost of a Mongoose with
US
systems would be up there with the Tiger. If they're going to go that
route,
they should buy the damn Comanche.

It is possible for one helicopter to do both the light attack and light
utility
missions. The question is how light is "light," and how much you want to
go
offshore. If the Army doesn't care about the US industrial base (The
Coast
Guard doesn't.), there are lots of foreign candidates.

your absolutely wrong about this, the HH-65A maybe French design, but
it is 100% american made. From the engines to the airframe, to the
avionics.
info.
http://www.uscg.mil/d13/dpa/backgrou...rs/dolphin.htm

Well, it does not really say that. It says it was manufactured here in the
US--how much of the airframe assembly was from knock down kits? As to
engines, they are apparently being replaced...by a European design from
Turbomecca. Face it, the Dolphin is a French helo--just as the F-16's that
are built in the ROK undwer license are "American".

Brooks


Great as it is, I think the single-engined MD600/MH-6 Little Bird is too
small
for a lot of Guard missions. In addition to RAID anti-drug patrols, the
guard
has to move emergency response teams, and it will probably need secondary
medevac capability - that means you need a good-sized cabin.

With that in mind, the MDHI MD900 would be a good light utility
helicopter, and
one made largely in the US (albeit by a Dutch-owned company). NOTAR
works
fine; it just wasn't right for the 160th.

The Bell 427 is a possibility, but it's uncomfortably close to the OH-58D
and
probably too light and confining for the Guard requirement.

The Agusta-Westland navel Super Lynx is already powered by Comanche
T800s, and
a Battlefield Lynx derivative with those engines and a domestic equipment
suite
could fill the bill.

The A109 is used for attack and utility missions, but a re-engined
version
again seems expensive for what you'd get.

LTV once offered a T800-powered Dauphin as the Panther. That would give
you a
pretty expensive French helicopter that could probably do the job. But,
again,
it's French.

Sikorsky pitched an AUH-76 long ago and got nowhere. I suspect the Army
would
like something smaller, more crashworthy and cheaper to operate.

Likewise, the Bell 412 is old technology and brings with it high
operating
costs for what you'd get.

The Agusta Bell AB139 and Bell UH-1Y I think are just too big and too
close to
the Black Hawk. I don't think there would be much incentive to buy either
one.


So, my choice would be the MD900, at least for the light utility
requirement.
You could hang the Little Bird weapons on it to make do with an armed
scout of
sorts.

Bear in mind, the Comanche started out filling these same requirements
with two
versions. Look at how well the Army handled that.

Frank

On 26 Feb 2004 20:05:18 GMT, (ROTORFRANK) wrote:

[stuff snipped]

Great as it is, I think the single-engined MD600/MH-6 Little Bird is too small
for a lot of Guard missions. In addition to RAID anti-drug patrols, the guard
has to move emergency response teams, and it will probably need secondary
medevac capability - that means you need a good-sized cabin.


You've got a good point there. Not much room in a Little Bird - if
you've got a gun hung on it you take up a bunch of rear-cabin space
with ammo boxes and chutes, and that cuts down on any space for sensor
electronics and anything else.

Other than the MD900 how about a BK-117 variant? It's a twin, and big
enough to use for EMS.

Anybody notice that the Army aviation PowerPoint presentation used an
AH-6/MD500-type helicopter graphic to represent the recon helicopter?

John Hairell )

Guy Alcala wrote:
Thomas Schoene wrote:

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they
go OTS.

I didn't even realize this was still in production. Seems like it would not
be a clear improvement over the OH-58. Doies it have the endurance to
operate tactically with the Apache?


2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

AB-139,

This is a tempting option, given that the Coast Gaurd has selected it for
their Deepwater program (with major US content, BTW).


3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?

CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit commonality
with the C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful, but
cheaper.

And also selected by the USCG.



--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

Thomas Schoene wrote:

Guy Alcala wrote:
Thomas Schoene wrote:

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they
go OTS.

I didn't even realize this was still in production.

Sure, MD Helicopters got split off from Boeing a few years back. As someone
else remarked, the MD-530F might be the a/c of choice, assuming the Army doesn't
want one of the NOTAR variants, or they could buy the lower-powered MD-500E.
Always assuming they're willing to stay single-engine.

Seems like it would not
be a clear improvement over the OH-58.

Performance-wise, operators tend to disagree. The OH-58's main advantage is
that it was cheaper to buy and (probably) operate.

Doies it have the endurance to
operate tactically with the Apache?

I couldn't say.


2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

AB-139,

This is a tempting option, given that the Coast Gaurd has selected it for
their Deepwater program (with major US content, BTW).

3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?

CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit commonality
with the C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful, but
cheaper.

And also selected by the USCG.

Are you sure? I thought they'd selected the CN-235-300M.

Guy

Guy Alcala wrote:
Thomas Schoene wrote:

The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful,
but cheaper.

And also selected by the USCG.

Are you sure? I thought they'd selected the CN-235-300M.

Yes, you're right. But the 235 and 295 are fairy close relatives. (That's
my excuse anyway)

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)