IDAHO FATALITY

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:11:43 -0700, Cookie wrote:

I have a better idea....just don't do low passes....duh....

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that in some gliders you
can do things reasonably safely that are plain stupid in others.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Aug 21, 12:44*pm, Cookie wrote:
Sure looks like you guys have "hijacked" this thread and are, for some
reason, back on the "glider signals and radio thread again"

It was all pretty *much said in the earlier, long thread.............

Yes, but not every club or FBO has made the commitment to get radios
for all gliders & tow planes. I lost my best friend in a mid-air with
a tow plane that wasn't radio equipped, so the tow pilot didn't hear
the call that a glider was trying to land on the same runway at the
same time. I'm trying to get the SSA to recommend we all get radios
and I'll keep beating this drum until everyone has a radio.

As for this incident....I already see the blame being directed away
from the PIC.....some hint at the NTSB doing poor investigations...as
if that has anything to to with this......somebody else hinted that
the accident was "unavoidable"....Come on guys....

Nobody's saying it wasn't the PIC fault, we're trying to come up with
a way to break the tragic string of events that lead to the crash.
Radios would do just that!

I figured you all would come up with some reasons why this guys should
have been in radio contact with somebody...that would have prevented
the accident.
..
Yes, in contact with the tow plane right in front of him and trying
desperately to convey the message that YOUR SPOILERS ARE OPEN, what
better way to do this than by radio?

Or I expected you to come up with something like..."If only he had one
of those electronic angle of attack indicators, and an audible stall
warning (horn) and a visual stall warning (light) and some sort of
automatic yaw controller......"

Hmmmmm.....

Cookie

Cookie, I'm not just entertaining myself on a boaring Sunday
afternoon, I"M TRYING TO PREVENT THE NEXT ACCIDENT, what is your
purpose in posting?
JJ

On Aug 21, 6:54*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
On Aug 21, 12:44*pm, Cookie wrote:

Sure looks like you guys have "hijacked" this thread and are, for some
reason, back on the "glider signals and radio thread again"

It was all pretty *much said in the earlier, long thread.............

Yes, but not every club or FBO has made the commitment to get radios
for all gliders & tow planes. I lost my best friend in a mid-air with
a tow plane that wasn't radio equipped, so the tow pilot didn't hear
the call that a glider was trying to land on the same runway at the
same time. I'm trying to get the SSA to recommend we all get radios
and I'll keep beating this drum until everyone has a radio.

As for this incident....I already see the blame being directed away
from the PIC.....some hint at the NTSB doing poor investigations...as
if that has anything to to with this......somebody else hinted that
the accident was "unavoidable"....Come on guys....

Nobody's saying it wasn't the PIC fault, we're trying to come up with
a way to break the tragic string of events that lead to the crash.
Radios would do just that!

I figured you all would come up with some reasons why this guys should
have been in radio contact with somebody...that would have prevented
the accident.

.
*Yes, in contact with the tow plane right in front of him and trying
desperately to convey the message that YOUR SPOILERS ARE OPEN, what
better way to do this than by radio?

Or I expected you to come up with something like..."If only he had one
of those electronic angle of attack indicators, and an audible stall
warning (horn) and a visual stall warning (light) and some sort of
automatic yaw controller......"

Hmmmmm.....

Cookie

Cookie, I'm not just entertaining myself on a boaring Sunday
afternoon, I"M TRYING TO PREVENT THE NEXT ACCIDENT, what is your
purpose in posting?
JJ

To show a different way to increase safety than to introduce the next
electronic "gadget". To put the onus of safety where it
belongs.....on the pilot(s) and not shift the blame to signals, lack
of radio, the instructors, the SAA , accident investigators, or "it
was unavoidable"...etc.

Now the discussion has gone from one accident to another and then to
another.......we should look at each issue separetly, since the
solution is probably different in each case.....I'm not sure why you
and others keep bringing up the spoiler open incident on a thread
about low pass....now you bring up a tow plane mid air....all good for
discussion...but one at a time please...

In this particular discussion about a death due to a low pass followed
by a stall spin...the answer to increasing safety is so simple.....

Gee, this guy killed himself doing a low pass.....hmmmmm....If I don't
do low passes, I have just improved my odds of not killing
myself.....In fact I will prevent stall spin after low pass 100%.

You got a better way to prevent the next low pass accident???

Cookie

On 8/21/2011 3:31 PM, wrote:
On Aug 21, 2:03 pm, JJ wrote:
Wayne wrote.........
I was there and Ramy is right. Why he had done the pass is the big
mystery.

It's no mystery to me, he did a low pass because that's what the big
guys do. Same thing happened at Tehachapi a few years back, also in a
BG-12. Returning to the field with excess altitude, the kid thought
he'd do what he had seen the big guys do, so many times. He made his
low pass then pulled on some flaps to slow her down (while still going
fast). One hinge failed and a flap ripped out taking some of the drag
spar with it. With a damaged drag spar, the wing twisted and seperated
from the aircraft. His Dad who had just bought the ship for his son,
watched it all.
There was a time (20 years ago) when the only way to finished the race
was with a low pass to the finish line. GPS has made the low pass no
longer necessary and the clock can be stopped when entering the finish
cylinder at 1 mile and 500 feet. At Parowan last year, I called 4
miles out, then 'finish' as I passed the 1 mile finish circle, then
called entering the pattern. As I was rolling out a shadow suddenly
came over me as another sailplane passed right over me. I thought for
a second that he was trying to land in front of me. No, just another
hot-shot doing an unnecessary low pass (aka buzz-job) then pulled up
into a crowded pattern, without saying a word on the radio.
RC are you listening? Its time to ban any low pass when a finish
cylinder is in use and require an "entering the pattern" call from
everyone.
If I had my way, the line finish and the 50 foot low pass to the line
would be dropped and only the finish cylinder authorized in the rules.
Flame suit on,
JJ

Totally agree with JJ, I learned from other's mistakes and my own
analysis of hazards and quit doing low passes many, many years ago,

NK

I've no idea exactly why this now-dead pilot did a low-altitude pass, but
human nature strongly suggests to me 'because I can and it'll be cool!' may
well have been part of the thought process...just as JJ and Gary believe. (If
we're honest with ourselves, most of us exhibit such a glider piloting phase,
usually earlier in our 'gliding career.')

The *problems* with this sort of thinking on ANY Joe Pilot's part lie in the
thin margins (e'g' the nearby earth), and what early Muroc/Edwards test pilots
called the 'ugh-knowns.' Of course the Muroc guys were talking about
mach-related ugh-knowns not yet experienced outside a wind tunnel, whereas I'm
talking about Joe Pilot's personal ugh-knowns, but the risks are fundamentally
similar in that whatever happens may well be completely new to Joe Pilot...who
is now suddenly Joe TEST Pilot.

Would you rather be JTP far away from the ground, or close to it? Why?

If we assume what's been posited previously about this terrible tragedy, in
this thread, is fundamentally accurate, who among us doubts that this now-dead
pilot, if he had had the one-time ability to peer into his immediate future,
would have chosen to fly a different sort of landing pattern? Please note that
this question makes zero assumptions about any individual's ability to learn
how to safely do a low-altitude pass, or the desirability of so doing, or
anything else.

Sadly,
Bob - mindset matters - W.

On Aug 22, 8:47*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
A little rudder
to help the turn along, a little back stick because we're not as high
as we thought, and in the glider goes.

I can't help but wonder how many fewer people would ever have the idea
to try the above if it hadn't been suggested to them by their
instructor's patter during training.

You're all girliemen who can't accept that there will always be lousy
airmen. Low passes are loved by those who enjoy the rush of one's ship
'Stored Energy' being use in a most thrilling way, carefully trading
this energy for a unique flight profile.
Limit my airmanship because of an act by a poor pilot....? S__t no.
Let's set the speed limit to 45 on the interstate and see how you
would react.
Did I write you're all girliemen? Yep, above .....go eat your
broccoli.
R

Best low pass I ever saw was HW in his Nimbus 4 at Perry. Down the
entire runway at 5' pulling up into a loop. Now there's an airman!
It was the most fantastic soaring event I have ever witness and would
never attempt such a feat caus' I ain't that good.

My dad once told me that if I ever heard myself saying "hey, watch this," (or even thinking "hey watch this," for that matter), whatever the hell it was you were going to do, DON'T.

For the record, I was one of the posters who questioned the investigations chances of getting things right. My purpose for doing so is based on two incidents which i personally observed and reported on and one glider incident that I was intimately familiar with, all three of which were misreported. If we are to learn from the mistakes of others it is imperative that the mistake be clearly and accurately reported.

Where I fly there are a couple of guys who frequently do low passes and thankfully thus far without incident. They are high time pilots flying high performance glass and I must admit that I enjoy and admire what they do. I also have some nice videos of their exploits. My major concern is for a situation where someone else might be in the pattern and suddenly confronted by another glider joining then in close proximity, hopefully not TOO close.

Oh, and ROMEO. I love broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, a nice big steak and a huge baked potato smothered in butter and sour cream with a massive slab of pie and ice cream.

Walt

On Aug 21, 10:27*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:47*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

A little rudder
to help the turn along, a little back stick because we're not as high
as we thought, and in the glider goes.

I can't help but wonder how many fewer people would ever have the idea
to try the above if it hadn't been suggested to them by their
instructor's patter during training.

What!!! Are you ou are suggesting that there are instructors out
there who advocate raising the nose and over ruddering in the
pattern! ?

Cookie

On Aug 21, 11:02*pm, hretting wrote:
You're all girliemen who can't accept that there will always be lousy
airmen. Low passes are loved by those who enjoy the rush of one's ship
'Stored Energy' being use in a most thrilling way, carefully trading
this energy for a unique flight profile.
Limit my airmanship because of an act by a poor pilot....? S__t no.
Let's set the speed limit to 45 on the interstate and see how you
would react.
Did I write you're all girliemen? Yep, above .....go eat your
broccoli.
R

Best low pass I ever saw was HW in his Nimbus 4 at Perry. Down the
entire runway at 5' pulling up into a loop. Now there's an airman!
It was the most fantastic soaring event I have ever witness and would
never attempt such a feat caus' I ain't that good.

Well there you go...........this says it all.........Why do we even
bother?

Hint: Whenever somebody says "Hey everybody, watch this!" You know
its probably not going to end well!

Cookie

PS (I am assuming the post above is "tongue in cheek" right??)

On Aug 21, 11:02*pm, hretting wrote:
You're all girliemen who can't accept that there will always be lousy
airmen. Low passes are loved by those who enjoy the rush of one's ship
'Stored Energy' being use in a most thrilling way, carefully trading
this energy for a unique flight profile.
Limit my airmanship because of an act by a poor pilot....? S__t no.
Let's set the speed limit to 45 on the interstate and see how you
would react.
Did I write you're all girliemen? Yep, above .....go eat your
broccoli.
R

Best low pass I ever saw was HW in his Nimbus 4 at Perry. Down the
entire runway at 5' pulling up into a loop. Now there's an airman!
It was the most fantastic soaring event I have ever witness and would
never attempt such a feat caus' I ain't that good.

For all you "he-man, show off, airshow, stunt pilot, amateur,
wannabee's" ....maybe a sobering dose of reality....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._and_incidents

Growing up in Northern NJ, I had the great pleasure of attending the
Sussex airshow for twenty something of the 30 something years it was
held. Anybody and everybody in the airshow business performed there
over those years. These were the top stunt pilots in the world..The
most professional, the most talented...simply the best...

I occasionally pull out the old programmes from these shows......the
sad reality is that just about 50% of those pilots are dead...

Cookie