Letter to the FAA

On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:

and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow.

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas

Originally Posted by Andreas Maurer

On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:

and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow.

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas

Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."

That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow plane.

I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.

Walt

Nice discussion but.....
you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after each tow.
At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution. Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to "cut the cord" when needed.

At 03:54 01 June 2017, wrote:
Nice discussion but.....
you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after
each
tow.
At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution.
Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to
"cut the cord" when needed.

Likewise is there any data regarding inverted Schweizer tow hooks?
We operated a commercial soaring operation using a 182 with an
inverted Schweizer hook for over 25 years. None of our tow pilots
ever had a problem releasing a kiting glider. There are undoubtedly
other operations that also used an inverted Schweizer hook.

We did also encourage tow pilots, that if the glider started to get high
to put their hand on the release handle (located on the floor between
the seats) and if the yoke touched the aft stop to immediately release.

Also is there any data regarding the Schweizer style hook with the roller
sold by Mcfarlan?

M Eiler

As a sailplane pilot, I was taught to release IMMEDIATELY, if I lost sight of the tow plane. In these kiting accidents, how high are the sailplanes getting above normal tow path and about how long would they have lost sight of tow plane?

On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 12:30:07 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
At 03:54 01 June 2017, wrote:
Nice discussion but.....
you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after
each
tow.
At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution.
Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to
"cut the cord" when needed.

Likewise is there any data regarding inverted Schweizer tow hooks?
We operated a commercial soaring operation using a 182 with an
inverted Schweizer hook for over 25 years. None of our tow pilots
ever had a problem releasing a kiting glider. There are undoubtedly
other operations that also used an inverted Schweizer hook.

We did also encourage tow pilots, that if the glider started to get high
to put their hand on the release handle (located on the floor between
the seats) and if the yoke touched the aft stop to immediately release.

Also is there any data regarding the Schweizer style hook with the roller
sold by Mcfarlan?

M Eiler

Originally Posted by Jonathan St. Cloud

As a sailplane pilot, I was taught to release IMMEDIATELY, if I lost sight of the tow plane. In these kiting accidents, how high are the sailplanes getting above normal tow path and about how long would they have lost sight of tow plane?

On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 12:30:07 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
At 03:54 01 June 2017, wrote:
Nice discussion but.....
you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after
each
tow.
At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution.
Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to
"cut the cord" when needed.

Likewise is there any data regarding inverted Schweizer tow hooks?
We operated a commercial soaring operation using a 182 with an
inverted Schweizer hook for over 25 years. None of our tow pilots
ever had a problem releasing a kiting glider. There are undoubtedly
other operations that also used an inverted Schweizer hook.

We did also encourage tow pilots, that if the glider started to get high
to put their hand on the release handle (located on the floor between
the seats) and if the yoke touched the aft stop to immediately release.

Also is there any data regarding the Schweizer style hook with the roller
sold by Mcfarlan?

M Eiler

I would hope that all glider pilots in their training understand the need to release immediately when they lose sight of the tow plane. The problem is that not everything everyone is trained to do is accomplished when needed.

In my case a 15 year old on her first solos kited not just high and fast but to the right, pulling my nose down and to the left as if in a spin and does this below 350 feet, this happened in the wink of an eye. We can discuss recurrent trainining which would not have entered into the picture in this situation. We can discuss emphasis on releasing but getting someone to actually do it is another thing. We can discuss it until the cows come home but the bottom line is the tow pilot must be given a fighting chance to have a determination in the outcome when others involved in the situation fail.

Walt

You can keep terminally ill patients from dying of their disease by shooting them in the head. Works every time.

On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 8:43:09 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:
-
and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow. -

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas

Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."

That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the
intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of
where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it
is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my
intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out
there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release
quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow
pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow
plane.

I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled
to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.

Walt

Well, you could do something positive then. For instance set up a means to share information on existing STCs or field approvals that others might find useful (anyone have a field approved Tost installation for an L-19? I'd be interested in that) or figure out how to get some engineering work done to support new applications, perhaps supported by a GoFundMe campaign or similar. I can think of many options. You know as well as the rest of us what form direct "help" from the FAA will take.


best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Originally Posted by Tango Eight

On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 8:43:09 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:
-
and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow. -

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas

Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."

That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the
intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of
where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it
is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my
intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out
there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release
quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow
pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow
plane.

I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled
to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.

Walt

Well, you could do something positive then. For instance set up a means to share information on existing STCs or field approvals that others might find useful (anyone have a field approved Tost installation for an L-19? I'd be interested in that) or figure out how to get some engineering work done to support new applications, perhaps supported by a GoFundMe campaign or similar. I can think of many options. You know as well as the rest of us what form direct "help" from the FAA will take.


best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

I am doing something positive. I am attempting to save the life of the next tow pilot who experiences a sudden (ln about the wink of an eye) kiting event down low. As I have stated, this problem is well known and documented in the SSA, SSF and FAA literature. At a MINIMUM all Schweizer hooks should be inverted AND the release handle needs to be IMMEDIATELY available to the tow pilot, NOT out of sight, down on the floor and in some cases modified (was this done with proper notification of the FAA) reducing the mechanical advantage necessary to actuate the release.

Walt

Of the 5 pure sailplanes I've owned, all but one had a CG releases
*ONLY*. To my mind, that does not imply that a CG hook is only for
ground launching because that would reduce the number of prospective
purchasers by a bunch.

As others have stated - please don't wake the sleeping giant (FAA). It
is for those tow pilots who have concerns on the matter to decline to
tow a CG release-equipped glider with a Schweizer-equipped tug. To put
it into blunter terms, it is not for you or the FAA to tell me what I
can or cannot fly based upon your concerns.

More freedom, less regulation.

Dan

On 5/31/2017 2:36 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:
-
and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow. -

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas
Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."

That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the
intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of
where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it
is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my
intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out
there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release
quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow
pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow
plane.

I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled
to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.

Walt





--
Dan, 5J