Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:

Your putting the effect before the cause. Could it be that "it simply
doesn't appear on the radar of too many people" because it costs to damn
much to do it thier?

no.

and nobody I talked to had the slightest idea about the costs. for sure
they
meant that it isn't the cheapest hobby, but compared to skiing (with all
the
associated costs) or golfing or other things it is still within reach (I
made my
private pilot license here when I was an office clerk for the social
security
administration with an average paycheck).

#m
--
http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg

Well France has a long tradition of aviation even rivaling the US. What
happened that knocked it of the radar if it wasn't cost. I know cost has
hammered it pretty good here in the US.

El Dorado AR a town of 25,000 in a county with about 50,000 has two airports
ELD and F43. When I was growing up there were three FBOs that rented,
chartered and all that fun stuff. When I got my PPL in 79-80 there were two
and the one I used had three aircraft that stayed rented on the weekend and
were pretty well used during the week. I think the other FBO had two.

Then I went off to school for 4 years. When I returned they were all gone
there have been a couple try to start up since then and they have all failed
miserably. We had no real economic down turn here and we still have more
than our fair share of Doctors, Lawyers and Oil Men.

THe two things that killed it were the cost of AVGAS and Insurance.

Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a starting
point.

Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight pre-date our
own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this thread
states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their very
aggressive tax policies.

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
make the cost of avgas what it is?

I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply as
the U.S. -- yet our avgas is "only" $3.30-ish per gallon.

You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should quit
defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

As opposed to your well-thought out, carefully crafted counter-arguments?

;-)

The facts are clear. It is your unwillingness to accept them that is
puzzling. Why -- especially in an aviation forum -- are you (and Larry,
Martin, and a couple of other folks) defending a foreign tax system that
more than DOUBLES the price of aviation? This makes no sense to me.

And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on the
population of their country?

They're not. But based on the population of France, there should be many
times more pilots -- ESPECIALLY given their proud heritage of flight.

I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of avgas
that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why, in the
land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few men and
women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price considerations?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Stella Starr" wrote in message
news:8bP9e.5414$r53.3247@attbi_s21...
Jay Honeck wrote:


Show me one statistic that disproves that aviation in France hasn't been
decimated by the French government's predatory aviation gas tax
strategy.

Decimated since when?
Post a reference statistic and time as a starting point.

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
make the cost of avgas what it is?

You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should quit
defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

You obviously missed the post with the extensive supporting evidence.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:55:25 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote in hhO9e.5889$c24.2848@attbi_s72::

TRAINS?

High speed (180 mph) European trains are preferable to airline
transportation within Europe. No security lines nor baggage waiting,
and you can walk around and eat first class cuisine en route.

It's possible to travel in your sleep on slower European trains, save
the cost of a night's lodging, and arrive at your destination rested
and ready.

If you haven't tried it, don't knock it.


I tried it, they were on strike, again and again and again and again.

What is going to happen
to cigarette smoking in Iowa if (when?) the legislature double the tax on
a
pack of smokes

Iowa smokers will purchase out of state.

The aviation parallel, of course, is simply to witness how many foreign-born
pilots come to America to train -- to escape predatory taxation.

I'm all for people quitting smoking, but adding 60-some cents per pack
tax -- overnight -- seems like a great way to (a) cut tax income for the
State and (b) create a thriving black market.

Heck, I remember in the 1970s my parents would pay a trucker friend to pick
up 50 cartons of cigarettes whenever he drove through Virginia (?) because
they cost a whole dollar less (per carton!) then they did in Wisconsin.
With this proposed tax, the difference could be as much as $12 per carton!

Social engineering through taxation -- even well-meaning efforts -- almost
always seems to have unforeseen consequences.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

High speed (180 mph) European trains are preferable to airline
transportation within Europe. No security lines nor baggage waiting,

That's interesting.

You would think after the train bombings in Spain, there would be as much --
or more -- security efforts expended on them?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article 9IT9e.5855$r53.47@attbi_s21, says...

High speed (180 mph) European trains are preferable to airline
transportation within Europe. No security lines nor baggage waiting,

That's interesting.

You would think after the train bombings in Spain, there would be as much --
or more -- security efforts expended on them?
--

You are correct!
The security situation on European high-speed trains is a catastrophe waiting
to happen, particularly in France, where their TGV is considered an icon of
national pride. Security has increased slightly, but it would still be
child's play for someone (anyone) to place a bomb in the luggage carrier of
one of these trains. I'm even afraid writing this, because I don't know who
may read - but then it's SO obvious!

This situation is atypical of the French, usually overly security concious.

G Faris

Martin Hotze wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote:


It's the relative PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft, and airports that is out
of whack in France. If aviation weren't dead in France, they should have
the same PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft and airports as the US.



they apparently have other priorities. They have faster trains, for example. How
does this compare with the US?

We have some fast trains too but we can't get them to stop so they have
been mothballed for a while.

Jay Honeck wrote:

Okay, Stefan -- the ball is in your court.

Show me one statistic that disproves that aviation in France hasn't been
decimated by the French government's predatory aviation gas tax strategy.

Ok. Let's start at the basics. First, statistics can't prove or disprove
anything. Carefully done (which few are), they can show correlations.
But interpreting those correlations is science (and an art) in itself.
So you started with the wrong question in the first place.

Then, to correct a misinformation: Avgas is not only taxed in France. It
is similiarly taxed throughout Europe. So if you want to bash somebody,
then you must bash whole Europe. (Yes, in this case, generalisation is
allowed.) I'm aware that bashing France is very popular among certain
Americans these days, but it is as it is.

Third, to correct another misinformation: It's not only avgas which is
taxed, but all oil products which is used for engines. (Jet fuel is an
exeption, but this is a long story. So let's forget this for the
moment.) Yes, auto gas is also highly taxed. But, surprize surprize, car
traffic isn't dead at all throughout Europe. Which already is that proof
you asked for.

Yes, "grassroot aviation" as you name it is very expensive in Europe.
Operating a light single under VFR costs about twice what it does in the
USA. But is it because of the taxation? To a small degree. Gas tax
contribute approximately one quarter to the hourly rate.

Frankly, as I said, private aviation is expensive. But somebody with an
average income can afford it if he really wants. (Unemployed are another
story, of course, but I guess they can't afford it in the USA, either.)
I'm not aware of anybody who really wanted to fly and couldn't do it
because of the price. I do know some who fly fewer hours, though.

So why is there less GA in Europe than in the USA? (It undoubtedly is
less.) First, as others mentioned, there are very few occations where GA
for transprotation reasons makes sense. Distances are smaller, so
usually train and/or car is not only cheaper but actually faster, too,
and if you really want to go far, you take an airline.

So GA (that grassroot GA, not biz jets) is a purely recreational
activity. And now comes the bummer: There are actually people out there
who are not interested in learning to fly! They just don't care! Yes,
it's shocking, I know, but it's the way it is. But then, it's maybe not
that surprizing at all: In Europe, nobody cares for baseball, either,
but everybody talks about soccer! Can you imagine this? Or, back to
aviation: In many European countries, soaring is more popular than
motorized flight, and not for financial reasons. Other countries, other
cultures, other hobbies. (Having lived for some time abroad helps a lot
in accepting this.)

So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you
would wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.

Stefan

Jay Honeck wrote:

As a fellow Iowan you can relate to this example: What is going to happen
to cigarette smoking in Iowa if (when?) the legislature double the tax on a
pack of smokes, as they are debating this very week? Predictions range
from a 13% to 26% drop in smoking.

Knowing a couple of smokers myself, my prediction is they will just
mumble somewhat, then rise their tobacco budget and continue to smoke.

Stefan