US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

I am with David Martin to a certain extent. Personally, I don't like the MAT tasks very much as a measure of flying skills, but they can be interesting to fly. Here's an example: On Day 2 during this year's Region 8 contest the CD shortened the Sports class MAT time from 3 to 2 hours, which in the hindsight turned out to be a mistake. After the weather improved, I decided to extend my flight and go east to check out the weather conditions there. The main reason for doing that was that I didn't want to waste half of a very interesting day sitting on the ground (or orbiting around the start gate collecting bugs). Eventually, my task time was 4:13 (more than double the minimum) and I had a very interesting and enjoyable flight. BTW, I won that day.

Being a polite peacekeeping Canadian, I would like to suggest a middle way. I would propose that SSA adopts the FAI rules and simply extends them with the inclusion of a MAT task, maybe only for the regional contests. That should satisfy both Sean and the pilots and CDs who like the flexibility of the MAT tasks.

Branko Stojkovic
Russia AC-5M XYU

David, why do you like about MAT'S?

Most MAT's I've flown, everyone seems to go in opposite directions. You fly alone, just like on a solo OLC flight. I can't compete against someone in another airmass with a different start time, so how can we really determine the winner?

What other types of racing in the whole world has different start times AND different courses? Does such a thing exist? Who created the MAT? Who is responsible for this?

To me, MAT's have become a tradition in the USA, while soaring in America continues to decline year after year. Perhaps that's why the rest of the world gives a big fat middle finger to MAT's. Hmmmm.

There is NO racing when there isn't a "SET" course!

According to Websters Dictionary,

"Race":

Noun. A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb. To compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.


By definition, a MAT is not a set course. Therefor, nobody who wins or loses an MAT can honestly say they won or lost a "race."

An MAT is viewed as a glider fun-fly by the rest of the world.

I believe in the US (likely other parts of the world as well) we go to, "glider competitions", where, at times there are races as well as "using the whole day as you see fit" based on what the CD (competition director, not RACE director, I am not aware of a RD anywhere in the world for sailplanes, I believe they're all called CD's.....).

Not picking one side vs. another, just bringing up a couple points.

Maybe Sean, in his next "race", should make SURE he has a RD, not a CD..........

Popcorn heating up.......

On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 8:29:16 PM UTC-6, wrote:
According to Websters Dictionary,

"Race":

Noun. A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb. To compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.


By definition, a MAT is not a set course. Therefor, nobody who wins or loses an MAT can honestly say they won or lost a "race."

An MAT is viewed as a glider fun-fly by the rest of the world.

So why do you think a head to head race is the only valid form of soaring competition? Is skill in finding lift on your own not worth isolating and measuring in a competition?

You might also note, since you seem to have dropped out of competition, that the "long MAT" referenced above is an assigned task with the option to cut it short and finish after the minimum time is up. Like an auto race that ends on the lap after the winner finishes whether you are on the lead lap or several laps back, you still get credit for finishing if you cross the line.

I looked, didn't find a staff list, but found http://www.sgp.aero/usa2016.aspx showing a video from the CD......


So, was this a race or a competition?

On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 10:44:35 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
I believe in the US (likely other parts of the world as well) we go to, "glider competitions", where, at times there are races as well as "using the whole day as you see fit" based on what the CD (competition director, not RACE director, I am not aware of a RD anywhere in the world for sailplanes, I believe they're all called CD's.....).

Not picking one side vs. another, just bringing up a couple points.

Maybe Sean, in his next "race", should make SURE he has a RD, not a CD..........

Popcorn heating up.......

Use the day as "you see fit." What does that even mean? Are you talking about a competitive racing sport or about going for a stroll down the beach?

And now you want to use the word competition (vs. race) to further pervert US contests. Here we go...

In a marathon RACING, do they let the runners run off anywhere they want to accumulate the 26.x miles? Why not just let them use the day and see who goes the furthest but any route they choose. Do the call running a race or a competition?

In the America's Cup RACING, do they let the sailors sail around the bay for some defined number of hours and then see who went the furthest (and give them the trophy)?

In the Le Tour de France RACING, do they let the cyclist "ride around the French countryside for a month" wherever they wish" so they can "use the day" to their liking?

In swimming RACING do they let the swimmers "use the day" to swim around the pool as far and long as they wish? Why do they have lane markers?

Here is another one for you. In adventure racing, do they let the adventurers "use the day (and night)" for a week of wandering around the backcountry and then see who went the furthest, in any direction they wished to go?

Can you name any "real sport" that conducts "racing" as "wherever the competitors wish to go" so they can "use the day?" After starting anytime the want?

No? This is because that is simply not competing. Calling that competition is simply ridiculous. Any self-respecting sportsman would not call that competing. "Using the day" is not objective. Using the day is highly, highly subjective competiton at best.

In the sport of running, using the day is called "going for a run." In the sport of sailing, using the day is called "going CRUISING!" In the sport of cycling, using the day is called "going for a bike ride." In the sport of swimming, using the day is called "going for a swim." In the sport of soaring, using the day is called "going gliding." It might be called OLC, maybe. If "using the day" is what you want to do with "your day," fine. Just one thing. Do not call that racing, a competition or a contest. Do not bring down the sport of US sailplane racing any further by attempting to call that kind of subjective activity ("using the day?") a competition or contest.

Formula One could start at 6am and race until 10pm. Why don't they? Becuase there is little purpose to simply racing as long as you can. The key element to all racing sports is a clearly defined race course. Racing is about quality, not quantity. Without a race track, it simply cannot be racing.. Racing also has a fair start, a race, and a finish. In racing, the one who crosses the finish line first is the winner. How novel. A race without a start is called a time trial, maybe.

OLC is "follow the pretty clouds" soaring. I get it, but OLC is not defined and therefore is not a race. It is something else. It's a fun way to pass the time vs. flying around with zero goals or objectives, by yourself. I'll give it that. IMO, OLC type soaring is meaningless in terms of serious competition. You also do not need any real contest infrastructure to participate or conduct OLC. That is the whole point. Just go flying, running, swimming, cycling. Whatever. You don't need a CD or rules. Becuase there is no track. There is almost no definition (7 turns, whatever). All you need is a any logger. OLC is even looser than a zero turn MAT. Do you want to talk about wastefulness? Wastefulness is getting all the apparatus together for a formal contest, and wasting it on the epic gamble of a MAT task. Or wasting a decent weather day on a big radius TAT. That is a massive waste. That is shameful. Yet we see it happen all the time. Even at Nationals.

The sport of soaring (especially in the USA) is already far too subjective. You already have the concept of starting literally any time you want. Out the top, the side, the back, whatever. Not even a line. A cylinder. You already have 95% of US tasks (TAT, MAT) which allow you huge degrees of freedom. And these OLC "like" subjective tasks are called regularly on great soaring days, not just the poor weather days. So seriously, what is the problem? Do you want even easier, more subjective tasking than you already have?

Soaring contests are not supposed to be about using the day. That's the whole point. They are about racing against your competitors, over a defined course and flying that defined course faster than them. At least it is to me. At least it is to the rest of the soaring world outside of the USA who do not use MAT tasks, EVER. That is right, NEVER MAT's. Becuase MAT's are simply ridiculous.

"Use the day." This is a concept which has almost zero to do with any competitive sport. If you want to use they day, please don't bring the entire US contest system down with you. Contests are about defined racing and should be as objective as possible. But please, go ahead. Have an OLC event.. That is cool. Especially in challenging places to fly like Nephi. I get it. That is really cool. Have fun.

On the other side of the coin, FAI tasking (used EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD EXCEPT THE USA) is about RACING (assigned tasks) as much as possible. A real sport. TATs are only called on days with questionable, doubtful or poor weather. Many FAI contests have well over 50% assigned tasks. The upcoming Australian WGC may have 75% assigned tasks (great weather, hopefully)..

Back in the US, our contest scene runs 3 (1, 2...yes, 3) AT's of every 100 contest tasks. 3%. So you "use the day" guys already enjoy roughly 97% OLC type tasking. So please don't be too upset with me about challenging your "use the day" tasking philosophy. You are already in the catbird seat. You must go to all kinds of contests, huh? Happy as pigs in the pen. Right?

Sean

For cry'n out loud Sean, how about coming off the fence and taking a side!!


Jon
On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 9:21:14 PM UTC-7, Sean wrote:
On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 10:44:35 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
I believe in the US (likely other parts of the world as well) we go to, "glider competitions", where, at times there are races as well as "using the whole day as you see fit" based on what the CD (competition director, not RACE director, I am not aware of a RD anywhere in the world for sailplanes, I believe they're all called CD's.....).

Not picking one side vs. another, just bringing up a couple points.

Maybe Sean, in his next "race", should make SURE he has a RD, not a CD..........

Popcorn heating up.......

Use the day as "you see fit." What does that even mean? Are you talking about a competitive racing sport or about going for a stroll down the beach?

And now you want to use the word competition (vs. race) to further pervert US contests. Here we go...

In a marathon RACING, do they let the runners run off anywhere they want to accumulate the 26.x miles? Why not just let them use the day and see who goes the furthest but any route they choose. Do the call running a race or a competition?

In the America's Cup RACING, do they let the sailors sail around the bay for some defined number of hours and then see who went the furthest (and give them the trophy)?

In the Le Tour de France RACING, do they let the cyclist "ride around the French countryside for a month" wherever they wish" so they can "use the day" to their liking?

In swimming RACING do they let the swimmers "use the day" to swim around the pool as far and long as they wish? Why do they have lane markers?

Here is another one for you. In adventure racing, do they let the adventurers "use the day (and night)" for a week of wandering around the backcountry and then see who went the furthest, in any direction they wished to go?

Can you name any "real sport" that conducts "racing" as "wherever the competitors wish to go" so they can "use the day?" After starting anytime the want?

No? This is because that is simply not competing. Calling that competition is simply ridiculous. Any self-respecting sportsman would not call that competing. "Using the day" is not objective. Using the day is highly, highly subjective competiton at best.

In the sport of running, using the day is called "going for a run." In the sport of sailing, using the day is called "going CRUISING!" In the sport of cycling, using the day is called "going for a bike ride." In the sport of swimming, using the day is called "going for a swim." In the sport of soaring, using the day is called "going gliding." It might be called OLC, maybe. If "using the day" is what you want to do with "your day," fine. Just one thing. Do not call that racing, a competition or a contest. Do not bring down the sport of US sailplane racing any further by attempting to call that kind of subjective activity ("using the day?") a competition or contest.

Formula One could start at 6am and race until 10pm. Why don't they? Becuase there is little purpose to simply racing as long as you can. The key element to all racing sports is a clearly defined race course. Racing is about quality, not quantity. Without a race track, it simply cannot be racing. Racing also has a fair start, a race, and a finish. In racing, the one who crosses the finish line first is the winner. How novel. A race without a start is called a time trial, maybe.

OLC is "follow the pretty clouds" soaring. I get it, but OLC is not defined and therefore is not a race. It is something else. It's a fun way to pass the time vs. flying around with zero goals or objectives, by yourself. I'll give it that. IMO, OLC type soaring is meaningless in terms of serious competition. You also do not need any real contest infrastructure to participate or conduct OLC. That is the whole point. Just go flying, running, swimming, cycling. Whatever. You don't need a CD or rules. Becuase there is no track. There is almost no definition (7 turns, whatever). All you need is a any logger. OLC is even looser than a zero turn MAT. Do you want to talk about wastefulness? Wastefulness is getting all the apparatus together for a formal contest, and wasting it on the epic gamble of a MAT task. Or wasting a decent weather day on a big radius TAT. That is a massive waste. That is shameful. Yet we see it happen all the time. Even at Nationals.

The sport of soaring (especially in the USA) is already far too subjective. You already have the concept of starting literally any time you want. Out the top, the side, the back, whatever. Not even a line. A cylinder. You already have 95% of US tasks (TAT, MAT) which allow you huge degrees of freedom. And these OLC "like" subjective tasks are called regularly on great soaring days, not just the poor weather days. So seriously, what is the problem? Do you want even easier, more subjective tasking than you already have?

Soaring contests are not supposed to be about using the day. That's the whole point. They are about racing against your competitors, over a defined course and flying that defined course faster than them. At least it is to me. At least it is to the rest of the soaring world outside of the USA who do not use MAT tasks, EVER. That is right, NEVER MAT's. Becuase MAT's are simply ridiculous.

"Use the day." This is a concept which has almost zero to do with any competitive sport. If you want to use they day, please don't bring the entire US contest system down with you. Contests are about defined racing and should be as objective as possible. But please, go ahead. Have an OLC event. That is cool. Especially in challenging places to fly like Nephi. I get it. That is really cool. Have fun.

On the other side of the coin, FAI tasking (used EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD EXCEPT THE USA) is about RACING (assigned tasks) as much as possible. A real sport. TATs are only called on days with questionable, doubtful or poor weather. Many FAI contests have well over 50% assigned tasks. The upcoming Australian WGC may have 75% assigned tasks (great weather, hopefully).

Back in the US, our contest scene runs 3 (1, 2...yes, 3) AT's of every 100 contest tasks. 3%. So you "use the day" guys already enjoy roughly 97% OLC type tasking. So please don't be too upset with me about challenging your "use the day" tasking philosophy. You are already in the catbird seat. You must go to all kinds of contests, huh? Happy as pigs in the pen. Right?

Sean

I would not call head to head more valid. I would call it higher quality. Im assuming you are referring to assigned tasks vs. timed, pilot option tasks so common in the USA (TAT, MAT).

First, 95% of the time I fly at a US contest, I cannot see or detect another glider. I have excellent vision. So, I am isolated, a ton, already. I hear that this "US contest isolation" causes a big shock to our pilots at the WGC.

Back to your question on head to head vs. pilot option..

Becuase it is harder to find a lift advantage over your competitors within a more tightly defined race format. There are fewer variables, although still more than enough line choice for the best pilots to gain the advantage. And because there are less variable, small advantages are more valuable than in pilot option, timed competition. When competitors are allowed to roam the sky, 60 miles away from your competitor while being in the same "turn area" (a typical US TAT with a 30-mile radius turn area, (65% of US tasks are TAT) ) and then "find better lift" than your distant "competitor" that is often more chance than skill. Few pilots (even meteorologists or even supercomputers) can consistently and accurately predict exactly where the soaring weather will be best 30-60 minutes/miles ahead in the next "turn area" vs. other pilots of their same level. Hell, I would argue even 10 minutes ahead! This highly variable "line choice" (even the choice of line over the next few clouds) is much more critical in an assigned task because each pilot must always ultimately consolidate his/her routing back to a common point (turn point) at the end each leg of the race track (aka assigned turn point).

In a TAT, the pilot can wander along in their new reality, often flying in an entirely different airmass than their competitors. This often decides the winner in a TAT. The concept of an actual race track (assigned task) is dramatically different than just "following the pretty clouds" as they develop in front of you (easy) and being able to choose both dramatically different lines (guesses) and also exactly where YOU want to turn (different turn locations for every competitor) in each of several turn points which make up the "competition" (TAT). Therefore, TAT (or MAT) tasks are simply not very high-quality competition formats when compared to assigned tasks as the number of variables are infinitely higher. And therefore chance is a much greater factor. This is why FAI (rest of the world) only chooses TAT in poor weather when giving the pilots options is sensible and the intentianal loss in competition value and quality is justified.

Assigned tasks are also not defined by a minimum time, which is always a huge decision (aided by expensive hardware and software for many), in the MAT or TAT. A huge amount of points are gained and lost in that "where to make that final turn" TAT guess (or more accurately your fancy computer calculating this for you). In a MAT, large portions of the task is "pilot option" and therefore chance abounds in each of many "guesses." Chance is enormous in these "pilot option" task types. In an assigned task, the competition (FAI, not the USA) is at least a race around a set racing track. The objective is simply to go as fast as you can, period. Less variables. Less chance. Higher quality competition.

Head to head sailplane racing only truly exists in SGP. SGP is fascinating to watch. It is simply not the leeching, gaggle fest that some would claim. It is actually quite the opposite. The field thins out amazingly quickly. SGP is extremely high-quality competition. Every decision is critical..

In all other forms of current soaring competition, even the WGC, there is absolutely zero limitation on pilots choosing their start time (a huge, HUGE variable...too huge). You can wait until 4pm or go as the gate opens at 1pm. Now add a MAT task to that competition format which already allows such starting freedom (chance). Or even add a long MAT with 30 minutes to burn on pilot choice turn points at the end of the assigned turns. Or even a wide radius TAT (22 miles is average in the USA). These pilot option tasks are highly (extremely) influenced by the pilot's guess on the best routing (and timing). And that routing/timing may provide hugely different options for the pilots based on their guess on when to start. This is highly chance/guess driven.

These free form, choose your route, OLC type tasks are already 95%+ of US tasking. An assigned task (a real one, not the perverted US rules version which is NOT a race) is more objective but the start time is still a major, often key factor (when pilots of equal skill are concerned). And there are still massive routing decisions which are even more critical in assigned tasks. Only SGP is the only truly objective form of sailplane competition. Chance is reduced by orders of magnitude in SGP over other task types.

Again, in the US today, you have 97% TAT or MAT. Only 3% AT (US perverted version). So those who disagree with me should be ecstatic.

Figures, you MISSED my original intent, it was NOT a discussion of racing or contests, it was word usage.

Most of the "soaring planet" goes to "glider contests/competitions", while there may be racing,it is not a given.
We have a CD at these events.
Sometimes racing is involved.

You, Sean, have provided a platform for glider racing. I think it's worth changing the main rules guy title to Racing Director, so people understand the difference.
I would HATE to have you deal with contestants that wanted a competition but only had races.

A bunch of us go to the HHSC Snowbird competition, no speed involved, can't say I have any real complaints.

You want a race, go to a race.
You put together a race, have a Race Director, otherwise, you may mislead someone........sucks to be you.

While I have competed for a couple decades in US soaring competitions, I have not for a few years.

I only replied to this thread when the time limit on it was about done.

You want a race, you have one.
Others in the US can do your race, or do competitions.

As to US rules vs. FAI rules, that is another thread.