ASW 24 WL for beginner ?

would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!

regards
Harry

Harry wrote:

would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!

regards
Harry

We had 2 ASW24 in my club, I had flights in both, one of them has winglets and not
the other one. This last one was recently destroyed in an accident. I find some
pecularities of these gliders are not really suited for beginners, but they are
nevertheless very good and safe gliders, as proven by the fact that the pilot
who had the accident was able to walk out of the glider and ask for help at the next
house. What I dislike in these gliders is the lack of efficiency of the ailerons
at low speed, probably due to their small size, especially at the beginning of ground
roll, where they have a marked tendency to drop a wing. The fact that they have only
a CG hook (but maybe specific to the 2 in my club) doesn't help. Beside that this
ship is a relatively high performance ship and as a consequence, as in any such ship,
speed increases quickly with nose down attitude, which may make speed control difficult
for a beginner. In my club there is a sequence of glider types through which you have
to go as your experience grows, namely ASK21, ASK23, LS4, Pegase, ASW24, Discus, LS6.
There is not a true transition between ASW24 and Discus, they are considered as equivalent
as far as pilot's skill and experience is concerned, however I find the Discus is easier
to fly than the ASW24. The pilot who had the accident is the owner of a Ventus 2a he
could not fly this day because a missing annual and some people suggested that one of
the factor lending to the accident was his lack of training on a ship with a handling
significantly different from his usual glider.

I flew about 1000h in my ASW24.
I never had a wing down situation at the start with equally loaded ballast.
I always take off with the brakes pulled
- not to over roll the rope on asphalt
- to give more control to the ailerons
- have lass influence of propeller gusts with side wind
I cannot understand that mostly only competition pilots use this start
procedure.
If the aileron response is too sluggish in circling, then your circle speed
is too low. The ASW24 only climbs well, if you fly it at least 10km/h
above stall speed.
I modified my ASW24 before the WGC1995 in Omarama NZ to B
profiling and attached the winglets. I always flew the ASW24 about
3-5kg/m2 lighter than my friends did with Discus, DG300....
In this configuration I climbed the same, but still glided better above
150km/h.

The ASW24 cannot be flown like an LS4 - pull in the climb until it
shakes and then let go a bit. It needs more training to fly the ship
properly, to get the performance it has.
You also have to fly proper yaw. All slender fuselage designs need to
be flown within less yaw tolerance to keep the airflow along the
airframe turbulence "free".
With properly installed winglets you take the feet off the pedals and
the 24 centres yaw itself (that works for quite all winglet gliders).

Beginners must be told, that the 24 does not shake the elevator before
stalling. But the stalling behaviour within the proper CG is forgiving.
The glider is easy to fly, but needs to be flown more precisely to have
fun. The 24 has good stability and damping behaviour. You can trim
it, let go the stick "and eat a sandwich" (I would not try in a Discus).

Chris Hostettler


"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
Harry wrote:

would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments
welcome!

regards
Harry

We had 2 ASW24 in my club, I had flights in both, one of them has winglets
and not
the other one. This last one was recently destroyed in an accident. I find
some
pecularities of these gliders are not really suited for beginners, but
they are
nevertheless very good and safe gliders, as proven by the fact that the
pilot
who had the accident was able to walk out of the glider and ask for help
at the next
house. What I dislike in these gliders is the lack of efficiency of the
ailerons
at low speed, probably due to their small size, especially at the
beginning of ground
roll, where they have a marked tendency to drop a wing. The fact that they
have only
a CG hook (but maybe specific to the 2 in my club) doesn't help. Beside
that this
ship is a relatively high performance ship and as a consequence, as in any
such ship,
speed increases quickly with nose down attitude, which may make speed
control difficult
for a beginner. In my club there is a sequence of glider types through
which you have
to go as your experience grows, namely ASK21, ASK23, LS4, Pegase, ASW24,
Discus, LS6.
There is not a true transition between ASW24 and Discus, they are
considered as equivalent
as far as pilot's skill and experience is concerned, however I find the
Discus is easier
to fly than the ASW24. The pilot who had the accident is the owner of a
Ventus 2a he
could not fly this day because a missing annual and some people suggested
that one of
the factor lending to the accident was his lack of training on a ship with
a handling
significantly different from his usual glider.

I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What kind of problems
did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook?

Joe

On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 05:15 PM, Glider Pilot Network wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: ASW 24 WL for beginner ?
Author: Dhofstee
Date/Time: 22:10 22 July 2003
------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Lovinggood wrote:
If you get a ship with a CG hook
and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
all you can from the instructors before you make that
first launch.
Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of the two moments in

my (never ending) "training" that I don't want to repeat.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-)

David
NL


------------------------------------------------------------

"Joe Lacour" wrote...
I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What kind of problems
did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook?

CG hooks are intended to facilitate the kind of climb angles needed for an
efficient winch launch, and will do so, even if you happen to be behind a
towplane. This can be avoided by setting full-forward trim prior to takeoff.
Once you are going fast enough for adequate rudder control, use forward pressure
on the stick to lift the tail and roll along on the mainwheel behind the
towplane. When you are going fast enough to lift off, release the forward
pressure, but resist the temptation to pull back.

Marc
(who did the kite thang during his first aero-tow in his CG-hook-equipped
DG-101, as well as his Ventus)

I have an LS4 with a belly hook and have had "moments" aerotowing from
a hard runway with a crosswind component where the metal tailskid
allowed the glider's tail to weathercock very easily. Last year's
Christmas present was a tailwheel to replace the skid and the
directional control on the ground is much improved.

Martin

Joe Lacour wrote in message ...
I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What kind of problems
did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook?

Joe

On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 05:15 PM, Glider Pilot Network wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: ASW 24 WL for beginner ?
Author: Dhofstee
Date/Time: 22:10 22 July 2003
------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Lovinggood wrote:
If you get a ship with a CG hook
and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
all you can from the instructors before you make that
first launch.
Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of the two moments in

my (never ending) "training" that I don't want to repeat.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-)

David
NL


------------------------------------------------------------

Joe,

When I started flying my LS-1 with it's CG hook, I
probably had never aero-towed with a CG hook. I had
aero-towed with nose hooks and winch launched with
CG hooks and probably had about 300 hours (?). I did
experience a problem on my first takeoff that can be
attributed to the CG hook and a bit of tail-heaviness
in the glider. It was cured with a proper 'A&P' certified
weight and balance with me in the cockpit and the glider
sitting on the scales. We added weight to the nose
(since then, I've added weight around my belly...)

I would think an experienced pilot should handle the
CG hook for aerotowing well, but a newly licensed pilot,
I think, should get a lot of information from the instructor.
Maybe allow the instructor to fly the ship some before
he, the newly licensed pilot does, so the instructor
can discuss the flying characteristic? Also, if a
two-place ship is available with a CG hook, could it
legally and safely be aerotowed with the CG hook if
a nose hook is available? If so, why not do some dual
with the instructor in the two-seater?

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina

PS: To David Hofstee. Hi David. Still the same Ray
here on the 'liberal' side of Chapel Hole!


At 22:36 22 July 2003, Joe Lacour wrote:
I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What
kind of problems
did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook?

Joe

On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 05:15 PM, Glider Pilot
Network wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: ASW 24 WL for beginner ?
Author: Dhofstee
Date/Time: 22:10 22 July 2003
------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Lovinggood wrote:
If you get a ship with a CG hook
and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
all you can from the instructors before you make that
first launch.
Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of
the two moments in

my (never ending) 'training' that I don't want to
repeat.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-)

David
NL


------------------------------------------------------------

"Ray Lovinggood" wrote in message
...
Snip----

Also, if a two-place ship is available with a CG hook, could it
legally and safely be aerotowed with the CG hook if
a nose hook is available? If so, why not do some dual
with the instructor in the two-seater?

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina

It's legal and a good idea. I've done this sort of transition training many
times using a variety of two-place trainers equipped with CG hooks. If the
pilot flies the airtow within normal limits there are few differences to
show the effect of the CG hook. However, if the glider gets high, things
can go bad in an instant. I always brief the tug pilot that if he feels the
tail being pulled up, he should release his end of the rope instantly.

Occasionally, a transitioning pilot will turn up who has a habit of relying
on the nose mounted hook to help keep him in position laterally. That
pilot, when flying with a CG hook, will have to learn to fly the glider more
aggressively to stay in position.

There were some flights testing air towing with CG hooks done in the UK.
The take-home lesson seemed to be that a glider in a too-high position with
a nose hook is still recoverable. With a CG hook, the situation becomes
unrecoverable in an eyeblink. Air towing with a CG hook creates a situation
where things can appear controllable one instant and completely out of
control the next.

This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose hooks for
airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's
Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a Tost
hook that can makes a lot of sense.

Bill Daniels

Why wouldn't you "go that far"?

Every glider should be equipped with a nose hook. In today's world, how
many of us will ever fly off a winch? The nose hook should be standard with
the c of g hook optional, not the other way around! We should insist on
nose hooks on all new gliders and stop letting our knuckle-dragging egos
cling to the past.


This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose hooks
for
airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's
Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a Tost
hook that can makes a lot of sense.

Bill Daniels

Depends where you are.

There are winches at every club I have ever visited in South Africa.
At my club we gave up on Aerotow 8 years ago.
It is expensive.
It is slow.
It is more dangerous in some ways.
We have predictable enough thermals that we have very low 'relight'
incidence.

That said, you need aerotow when you have long wings, or are carrying
water or need the height or physical displacement to be able to contact
lift. The nose hooks on our gliders are pristine, make us an offer...

Stephen Szikora wrote:
Why wouldn't you "go that far"?

Every glider should be equipped with a nose hook. In today's world, how
many of us will ever fly off a winch? The nose hook should be standard with
the c of g hook optional, not the other way around! We should insist on
nose hooks on all new gliders and stop letting our knuckle-dragging egos
cling to the past.


This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose hooks

for

airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's
Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a Tost
hook that can makes a lot of sense.

Bill Daniels