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F15E's trounced by Eurofighters



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 27th 04, 11:36 AM
John Cook
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Default F15E's trounced by Eurofighters

Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..

"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.

It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter
result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the
mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero
losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much
knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is
understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at
the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the
first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best
combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best
fighter in history.

But that is history now!

Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake
District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command,
the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins. They have
been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation
of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker. They know what
they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated
evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government
level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority
against Eurofighter Typhoon. Now they have the first real indication
that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the
right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the
future."

http://users.boardnation.com/~warpla...y;threadid=445


Cheers


  #2  
Old February 27th 04, 06:09 PM
Glenn P.
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Default

John Cook wrote:
The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one


That's quite a trick. Were they using their standard sidearms for this?

  #3  
Old February 27th 04, 06:26 PM
Harry Andreas
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Default

In article , John Cook
wrote:

Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..

"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.


Bit of hyperbole there.
The author lumps the E and C models together.
Wake me when the Eurofighter trumps the C.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur
  #4  
Old February 27th 04, 07:30 PM
Tarver Engineering
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Harry Andreas" wrote in message
...
In article , John Cook
wrote:

Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..

"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.


Bit of hyperbole there.
The author lumps the E and C models together.
Wake me when the Eurofighter trumps the C.


If the F-35C is that good, it is one more nail in the F-22's coffin.


  #5  
Old February 27th 04, 08:45 PM
Scott Ferrin
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Default

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:30:18 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


"Harry Andreas" wrote in message
...
In article , John Cook
wrote:

Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..

"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.


Bit of hyperbole there.
The author lumps the E and C models together.
Wake me when the Eurofighter trumps the C.


If the F-35C is that good, it is one more nail in the F-22's coffin.



Well, keep hoping. You really ought to get your burning hatred of the
F-22 checked out by a mental health professional. You're FAR over the
line into raving obsession.
  #6  
Old February 27th 04, 08:47 PM
Tarver Engineering
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:30:18 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


"Harry Andreas" wrote in message
...
In article , John Cook
wrote:

Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..

"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on

the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.

Bit of hyperbole there.
The author lumps the E and C models together.
Wake me when the Eurofighter trumps the C.


If the F-35C is that good, it is one more nail in the F-22's coffin.


Well, keep hoping. You really ought to get your burning hatred of the
F-22 checked out by a mental health professional. You're FAR over the
line into raving obsession.


Celebration, Scotty.

You were wrong all along.


  #7  
Old February 27th 04, 08:57 PM
Ed Rasimus
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:36:33 +1100, John Cook
wrote:

Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..


You mean "piqued", but I digress.

"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.


---rest of drivel snipped---

First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a
"first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around
learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud
Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably
quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and
engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and
"ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...."

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.
You've described a WVR engagement and don't acknowledge that the
standard Eagle tactics would have been to long range radar shoot in
the face, then intermediate range IR shoot in the face, then blast
through with guns if the kill was not complete.

The Eurofighters wouldn't have engaged in a turn/burn WVR engagement
and the Eagles would not have been in a "fighting wing" or closer
formation so that the Eurofighters could "comfortably gun" the
trailing one.

In other words, the entire report is pathetically bogus and written by
someone without the first clue of air/air engagement or training.

I'm not demeaning either the Eurofighter or the RAF, but there is no
reasonable conclusion to be drawn from this report regarding
superiority of the one or demise of the other.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
  #8  
Old February 27th 04, 09:16 PM
Krztalizer
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Posts: n/a
Default

Reminds me of the "shocking" 'loss' between the USN and the IAF that was
reported here a year or so back.
  #9  
Old February 27th 04, 10:04 PM
Ian
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:36:33 +1100, John Cook
wrote:

Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..


You mean "piqued", but I digress.

"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.


---rest of drivel snipped---

First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a
"first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around
learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud
Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably
quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and
engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and
"ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...."

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.


Violation on whose part?


  #10  
Old February 27th 04, 10:28 PM
Ed Rasimus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:04:47 -0000, "Ian" wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a
"first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around
learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud
Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably
quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and
engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and
"ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...."

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.


Violation on whose part?


I can't speak for the RAF, but their regs are remarkably similar to
USAF's. It would be a violation to conduct an unbriefed DACT
engagement. Spontanous "bouncing" goes on, but it isn't condoned.

There's no point in doing it. It doesn't meet any training objectives,
it isn't controlled, it is downright dangerous and without pre-briefed
ROE proves nothing.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
 




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