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Starter question



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 30th 07, 06:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Ronnie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default Starter question

Allen,

What sort of starter do you have on the Sundower? I had a
starter problem in my 172 this summer which turned out to
be a bad contactor in the starter itself. Mine was a Skytech
permanent magnet type starter for Lycoming engines. It has
a contactor on the starter and this failed intermittenantly.
Once in a while, I hit the key and would only hear a click. By
the time I'd get the cowling off and a meter attached to trouble
shoot, the problem was gone. This went on for a couple of
months until it finally failed long enough for my to get a positive
diagnosis that it was the contactor mounted on the stater and
not the Cessna starter contactor mounted on the firewall which
I initially suspected. I sent the starter back to Skytech and
they fixed it. It was a common problem on early versions of
these starters when used in a high vibration environment. Pits
or groves get worn into the contact plate in the contactor and
don't make good connection some of the time.

What time of day yesterday did you go flying? The reason I ask
is because I was at MBO at 1:30 pm yesterday trying to get my Aztec
started. I also had problems. It was cold soaked from the 22 degree low
early Monday morning and even though the OAT had risen by
early afternoon the effects on the battery and the oil made the engine
very hard to get turning.

When I hit the right enginer starter, it just moaned, wiggled the
prop, and could not over come the compression. Same thing on
the left engine. I thought I was going to need external power
assist, but after waiting a couple of minutes to let the battery
recover after each try, I finally got enough movement of the
prop to get it turn over. It is a good than that those engines
fire up with not much cranking.

Is your airplane hangared in the hangar closest to the office? If
so, I think I saw it during my visit. I used to have an airplane
based at MBO back in the mid 80s before I move to Austin.
That was the first time I've been there since then. Nice to see
the airport is still going strong.

Ronnie



"A Lieberma" wrote in message
. 18...
Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn the
key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things off,
figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and bat, same
thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the prop to turn and
fired right up.

Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.

I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the key,
just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.

Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the prop,
but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being low, it
being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the electrical
amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.

Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere for a
problem?

Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would have
gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.

Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not like
the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.

Allen



  #12  
Old January 31st 07, 12:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
A Lieberma
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default Starter question

"Ronnie" wrote in
. net:

Hey Ronnie,

Will post results in seperate post with an update subject line but to
answer your questions

What time of day yesterday did you go flying? The reason I ask
is because I was at MBO at 1:30 pm yesterday trying to get my Aztec
started. I also had problems. It was cold soaked from the 22 degree
low early Monday morning and even though the OAT had risen by
early afternoon the effects on the battery and the oil made the engine
very hard to get turning.


It was 4:00 in the afternoon. I thought the same thing.

When I hit the right enginer starter, it just moaned, wiggled the
prop, and could not over come the compression. Same thing on
the left engine. I thought I was going to need external power
assist, but after waiting a couple of minutes to let the battery
recover after each try, I finally got enough movement of the
prop to get it turn over. It is a good than that those engines
fire up with not much cranking.


Same exact symptoms!

Is your airplane hangared in the hangar closest to the office? If
so, I think I saw it during my visit. I used to have an airplane
based at MBO back in the mid 80s before I move to Austin.
That was the first time I've been there since then. Nice to see
the airport is still going strong.


I am tied down closest to the office outside the hangars. You would have
passed my plane on your left to the transient parking. Best looking
Sundowner on the ramp on my own subjective opinion :-)

Going strong is an understatement! When I returned for some touch and
goes, 5 planes in the pattern. This was the first time I ever was number
3 on final. I had to orbit east of the field so I could time my pattern
entry and merge into the traffic pattern just like an interstate :-)

Allen
  #13  
Old January 31st 07, 12:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
A Lieberma
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default Starter question

B A R R Y wrote in
et:

A Lieberma wrote:


Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
for a problem?


Once it started, was the ammeter displaying a similar indication as it
does after a start?


Not so sure about that ammeter after what I learned.....

After start, it was in it's normal "charging" position after startup and by
the time I got to runup area, it was dab smack in the middle.

Allen
  #14  
Old January 31st 07, 12:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
A Lieberma
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default UPDATE Starter question

A Lieberma wrote in
. 18:

Update to the below posting.

My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.

The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
plane.

I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
after the master switch was put on.

He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
was only putting out 9 volts.

I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
of the battery.

This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.

Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
running full tilt?

When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.

When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
a bad battery is the problem?

Thanks all for the input!

Allen

Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
prop to turn and fired right up.

Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.

I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.

Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.

Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
for a problem?

Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.

Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.

Allen


  #15  
Old January 31st 07, 01:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 790
Default UPDATE Starter question

"A Lieberma" wrote in message
. 18...
A Lieberma wrote in
. 18:

...
Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
running full tilt?


The ammeter tells you what is going in or out of the battery. It tells you
if the alternator is working - it tells you nothing about the condition of
the battery. If the battery were to fall out of the bottom of the aircraft
during flight, the ammeter would register 0 - nothing going in, nothing
going out.


When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.


So the battery was still connected and could still put out something.


When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
a bad battery is the problem?


It can.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.


  #16  
Old January 31st 07, 01:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Kyle Boatright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 578
Default UPDATE Starter question

As a rule of thumb, the voltmeter gives you an indication of the condition
of your battery. Particularly before you hit the starter. At that time, it
tells you if your battery is fully charged to 13v or not.

An ammeter gives you an indication of the health of your charging system.
The specific information it gives is dependant on where the ammeter's shunt
is located.

If it is between the alternator and the master relay, it reads how many amps
your alternator is generating. If the shunt is between the master relay and
the battery, it tells whether your battery is charging or discharging, which
also reflects on the capacity of your alternator.

KB


"A Lieberma" wrote in message
. 18...
A Lieberma wrote in
. 18:

Update to the below posting.

My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.

The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
plane.

I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
after the master switch was put on.

He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
was only putting out 9 volts.

I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
of the battery.

This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.

Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
running full tilt?

When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.

When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
a bad battery is the problem?

Thanks all for the input!

Allen

Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
prop to turn and fired right up.

Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.

I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.

Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.

Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
for a problem?

Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.

Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.

Allen




  #17  
Old January 31st 07, 01:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Don Tuite
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 319
Default UPDATE Starter question

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:42:17 GMT, A Lieberma
wrote:

Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
running full tilt?


Sorry. I came in late.

Are we talking about a Piper?

If so, the "ammeter" is a "load" meter that reads current. It shows
how much current stuff in the airplane is sucking. If you have the
pitot and landing lights on, it should show a pretty heavy load. Most
of the time, it doesn't indicate much, because radios and stuff don't
present a very big load.

If we're not talking about a Piper, nevermind.

Don

  #18  
Old January 31st 07, 02:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Blueskies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 979
Default Starter question


wrote in message oups.com...
: On Jan 29, 6:34 pm, A Lieberma wrote:
: :
: Get a voltmeter and use the troubleshooting procedure outlined here...
:
: http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting
: %20Diagram_5.0.pdf
:
: Could be a cable problem or something similar. Take the starter to an
: Autozone or similar store and have them test it for you (they can do
: the same for your alternator).
:
: Regards,
: Bud
:

1.66 megs:
http://www.skytecair.com/images/Trou...iagram_5.0.pdf


  #19  
Old January 31st 07, 02:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
David Lesher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 224
Default UPDATE Starter question

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com writes:

Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
running full tilt?


The [zero-center style] ammeter tells you what is going in or out
of the battery. It tells you if the alternator is working - it tells
you nothing [directly] about the condition of the battery.


[added]

But you can infer battery condition by observing trends.

Normally, at initial idle, the ammeter will show a loss; the alternator
is making less than needed and the battery is helping.

At runup, the ammeter will show a charge. This will hold true at taxi,
etc.

Eventually, the charge expended by starting/idle will be recouped
and the ammeter will center near zero. BUT exactly when happens
that, be it one min. after TO, or 10 or 100, is a function of many
things including other loads, how long it took to crank, age of the
battery, etc. But it's your bird, and it should act about the
same in the same circumstances.

1) If the battery is run down, say because you are a slacker and
did NOT go flying last week; there's more charging needed.

2) If the battery is barely run down at all, because you stopped for
fuel & the restart was warm & easy; it may recharge during that long
taxi.

3) When the battery gets really whipped, it won't take a charge;
i.e. it appears to recharge in far less time.

The "no crank" you experienced means insufficent voltage at the
starter innards. Its cause could be: discharged/bad battery [low
source voltage] or bad connections -- be they at the battery terminals,
the starter cables, the solonoid, or inside the starter.

I always suspect the grounds first, but YMMV.





--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
  #20  
Old January 31st 07, 02:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 111
Default Starter question

On Jan 30, 5:00 pm, "Blueskies" wrote:
wrote in ooglegroups.com...

: On Jan 29, 6:34 pm, A Lieberma wrote:
: :
: Get a voltmeter and use the troubleshooting procedure outlined here...
:
: http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting
: %20Diagram_5.0.pdf
:
: Could be a cable problem or something similar. Take the starter to an
: Autozone or similar store and have them test it for you (they can do
: the same for your alternator).
:
: Regards,
: Bud
:

1.66 megs:http://www.skytecair.com/images/Trou...iagram_5.0.pdf


Thanks for the re-post. Sorry about the wrap around URL.

Bud


 




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