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Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 22nd 11, 02:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bildan
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Posts: 646
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide

On Mar 21, 5:51*pm, toad wrote:
On Mar 21, 11:26*am, bildan wrote:

On Mar 21, 6:45*am, "
wrote:


Anything that dangerous must be fun *On the other hand sailplanes
have a terrible safety record, training and experience doesn't seem to
help either.


I would rephrase...


Pilots who think training and experience doesn't matter tend to have
terrible safety records.


Just to make the counter argument, that the original article is
making.
"There are risks that training do not seem to be able to mitigate."

If your wing spar has an X % of breaking on every flight, no amount of
pilot training will reduce that percentage. *You can not mitigate that
risk with pilot training, you must re-design the spar. *The same is
with paragliders, there are inherent risks of collapse in the design.



Somehow there's a thought process that's found its way into aviation.
It's, "Gliding must be dangerous 'cause it sure ain't me that's
dangerous". Well, it is the pilot who's dangerous.

Humans are ALWAYS the weakest link. Training and experience
strengthen that link. Training and experience absolutely reduce risk.
Otherwise, why would anyone bother to train and test aviators?

For a long time now 95% of all GA accidents have been caused by pilot
error. It's not hard to ascribe the other 5% to pilots as well since
the pilot is charged with insuring his (it's usually guys) aircraft is
airworthy.

An airworthy spar in a glider flown by a well trained pilot who knows
and follows the rules has a 0% chance of breaking.
  #12  
Old March 22nd 11, 02:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide

On 3/21/2011 6:00 PM, bildan wrote:


An airworthy spar in a glider flown by a well trained pilot who knows
and follows the rules has a 0% chance of breaking.


Wasn't that the point of the website? That the paraglider has a
relatively large, non-zero chance of "breaking", even though you are
well trained and follow the rules? I don't know if he's right, but
seemed to be reasonable argument, that many/most accidents began when
the paraglider became unairworthy. That seems different from our
sailplane experience, where I'd say most glider crashes involve an
airworthy glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
  #13  
Old March 22nd 11, 02:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bastoune
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Posts: 77
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide


I don't think that bringing people to soaring is done by trashing
other aviation sports. One could come up just as easily with morbid
"reasons 23, 24, 25.... why gliding is not a good idea".

As a glider and paraglider pilot, my reasons to practice both sports
have so far exceed the list of reasons not to. They both have some
level of danger and failure to ignore this when I go fly would be an
added source of danger.
  #14  
Old March 22nd 11, 02:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Gary Evans[_2_]
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Posts: 40
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide

Most all of my sports starting with second generation HG's to diving
have been relatively high risk and I have survived so far in spite of
myself but there is no way I would fly a wing that can easily be
collapsed by air turbulence. Statistics will not be required to tell
me that is not a good idea but it’s your life so enjoy it while you
can.



  #15  
Old March 22nd 11, 04:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nyal Williams[_2_]
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Posts: 259
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide

Have you factored out the unairworthy gliders made so by faulty assembly?

worthyAt 01:29 22 March 2011, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 3/21/2011 6:00 PM, bildan wrote:


An airworthy spar in a glider flown by a well trained pilot who knows
and follows the rules has a 0% chance of breaking.


Wasn't that the point of the website? That the paraglider has a
relatively large, non-zero chance of "breaking", even though you are
well trained and follow the rules? I don't know if he's right, but
seemed to be reasonable argument, that many/most accidents began when
the paraglider became unairworthy. That seems different from our
sailplane experience, where I'd say most glider crashes involve an
airworthy glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)


  #16  
Old March 22nd 11, 04:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bildan
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Posts: 646
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide

On Mar 22, 9:20*am, Nyal Williams wrote:
Have you factored out the unairworthy gliders made so by faulty assembly?


Why would anyone do that? Proper assembly is a pilot responsibility
whether he rigged the glider or not. Pilots have the final
responsibility to perform a pre-flight inspection which includes
checking for proper assembly. If a pilot crashes due to improper
assembly, he alone bears the blame. Again, training and experience is
critically important.
  #17  
Old March 22nd 11, 06:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
toad
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Posts: 229
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide

On Mar 22, 11:49*am, bildan wrote:
Again, training and experience is critically important.


billdan,

Are you missing the point on purpose, not understanding or just trying
to have a different discussion ?

Neither the referenced article nor my post disagree with the statement
"training and experience is critically important". But we are making
the statement "there are some risks not mitigable by training".

If you are trying to emphasize the importance of training, please do
so without diminshing the posibility of other issues.

Thanks
Todd Smith
3S

  #18  
Old March 22nd 11, 07:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bildan
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Posts: 646
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide

On Mar 22, 11:36*am, toad wrote:
On Mar 22, 11:49*am, bildan wrote:

Again, training and experience is critically important.


billdan,

Are you missing the point on purpose, not understanding or just trying
to have a different discussion ?

Neither the referenced article nor my post disagree with the statement
"training and experience is critically important". *But we are making
the statement "there are some risks not mitigable by training".

If you are trying to emphasize the importance of training, please do
so without diminshing the posibility of other issues.

Thanks
Todd Smith
3S


I'm not missing the point - I'm going right at it.

Exactly what issues are not 'mitigable' by training? I'm saying
there are no such issues. All safety issues are addressable by
training. That's the fundamental premise of safety training.

My hot button is the prevalent but very wrong headed statement,
"Soaring is dangerous and there's nothing we can do about it".
Soaring isn't inherently dangerous of itself but human factors such as
lack of skill and knowledge can certainly make it so. Training and
experience is how we address human factors.
  #19  
Old March 22nd 11, 08:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
toad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 229
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide

On Mar 22, 2:53*pm, bildan wrote:
On Mar 22, 11:36*am, toad wrote:





On Mar 22, 11:49*am, bildan wrote:


Again, training and experience is critically important.


billdan,


Are you missing the point on purpose, not understanding or just trying
to have a different discussion ?


Neither the referenced article nor my post disagree with the statement
"training and experience is critically important". *But we are making
the statement "there are some risks not mitigable by training".


If you are trying to emphasize the importance of training, please do
so without diminshing the posibility of other issues.


Thanks
Todd Smith
3S


I'm not missing the point - I'm going right at it.

Exactly what issues are not 'mitigable' by training? * I'm saying
there are no such issues. *All safety issues are addressable by
training. That's the fundamental premise of safety training.

My hot button is the prevalent but very wrong headed statement,
"Soaring is dangerous and there's nothing we can do about it".
Soaring isn't inherently dangerous of itself but human factors such as
lack of skill and knowledge can certainly make it so. *Training and
experience is how we address human factors.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Well, I guess you are missing the point. Which is:

"Aircraft design issues can not be addressed by pilot training."

Todd
  #20  
Old March 22nd 11, 08:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Posts: 1,345
Default Reason 28, 29, 30.... why I don't paraglide

On Mar 22, 11:53*am, bildan wrote:

Soaring isn't inherently dangerous of itself but human factors such as
lack of skill and knowledge can certainly make it so. *Training and
experience is how we address human factors.


I see this in the opposite way: I firmly believe that soaring is
inherently unforgiving, and it is only through training and judgment
that we mitigate the risks. I think that no conscientious sailplane
developer or human factors specialist would say otherwise.

We fling ourselves through the air in lightweight plastic shells that
have only modest crash protection at speeds up to 150 MPH. We do not
always have full control over the conditions under which we land, or
where we land. Our machines have myriad idiosyncrasies that give rise
to sometimes awkward handling. We often operate these machines in
close proximity to one another, despite the fact that even the
slightest collision can result in structural failure. We often operate
them at altitudes conducive to hypoxia, which causes disorientation.
We fly in contests that place incentive on calibrated risk-taking.

Against all that we have training, skill, judgment, discretion,
engineering, a handful of electronics, some compressed gasses,
statistical probability, and a few books full of rules. And so far,
that stuff has kept the danger down to a dull roar, down to where
soaring is about as dangerous as you make it. It obviously cannot be
exactly as dangerous as you make it; in addition to the subjective
risks there are objective risks such as getting run down by the
occasional airplane that comes from behind. But for the most part
subjective risks reign, and training and experience hold the field.

Thanks, Bob K.
 




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