Checklist formats

On Mar 26, 10:09*am, Andy wrote:

However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
takeoff or landing in a glider. *The check list goes away before I get
in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.

No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
checklist help in single pilot operations? *Crews of military aircraft
and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
required response for all situations requiring immediate action. *Only
after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
checklist. *Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.

I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. *When I can't remember
the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
remember to get the checklist out.

Andy

Checklists save lives in where complex, life threatening tasks are
involved such as flying, surgery, etc. Its a proven fact. I probably
don't need a checklist either when everything is going great. But when
my assembly is interrupted, or I have to get out of the cockpit on the
flight line for some reason, or I am landing in a field, or a whole
string of seemingly small things stack up to a situation, I want my
lists. You are a very lucky man to have never forgotten to do
anything important in your flying career. I wish I could say the
same.

For those interested, check out "The Checklist Manifesto" by Atul
Gawande

Matt Jr.

On Mar 27, 9:48*am, toad wrote:
This has been beat to death here before, but IMHO shorter is better:
CBSIFTCBE before taking off, and (for me) WWW before landing (Wind
Water Wheel). *I don't need a piece of paper to remember those (yet!)

The rest is just good aviating.

Cheers (from snowy St Louis)

Kirk 66

I have never been able to memorize what CBSIFTCBE is supposed to mean
and a written checklist seems a perfect way for the pre-takeoff check
to be made.

(W)USTALL might have a couple of redundant checks, but it's short and
easy to remember.

Todd
3S

Funny, cuz I have no clue what (W)USTALL stands for.

Kirk
66

On Mar 27, 12:31*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
On Mar 26, 10:09*am, Andy wrote:









However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
takeoff or landing in a glider. *The check list goes away before I get
in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.

No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
checklist help in single pilot operations? *Crews of military aircraft
and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
required response for all situations requiring immediate action. *Only
after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
checklist. *Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.

I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. *When I can't remember
the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
remember to get the checklist out.

Andy

Checklists save lives in where complex, life threatening tasks are
involved such as flying, surgery, etc. *Its a proven fact. *I probably
don't need a checklist either when everything is going great. But when
my assembly is interrupted, or I have to get out of the cockpit on the
flight line for some reason, or I am landing in a field, or a whole
string of seemingly small things stack up to a situation, I want my
lists. *You are a very lucky man to have never forgotten to do
anything important in your flying career. *I wish I could say the
same.

For those interested, check out "The Checklist Manifesto" by Atul
Gawande

Matt Jr.

That's all great, but there aren't a lot of life threatening tasks
when landing a glider. Heck, in a 1-26, the only one is checking the
direction of the wind prior to entering the pattern - and even that
could be considered airmanship, not a task. In more complex gliders,
if you forget to dump your ballast you could fly the pattern too slow,
or if you leave the gear up it could get expensive fast, but what else
is life threatening - that isn't really just flying the glider?

I'm all for assembly checklists, and leave the house checklists, and
before leaving the glider field checklists - but gliders are simply
not complex enough to need lengthy inflight checklists. If they make
you feel better, fine, but the downside is that while you are reading
an going through a list of items, you are not flying the glider and
looking out very much - which is A LOT MORE IMPORTANT in the landing
pattern.

The example with doctors is misleading. I seriously doubt the surgeon
goes through a checklist before every action during an operation.
What he does is go through a pre-surgery checklist (like our assembly
check) and a post-surgery checklist (make sure nothing is left in the
patient), but he doesn't need a
1. grasp scalpel with right hand
2. place scalpel tip on patients skin
3. push until it bleeds
checklist!

In the complicated jets I used to fly in, our checklists were to make
sure all the required switches and checks were accomplished when
needed. And they were mainly done as "after the fact" challenge
response to verify completion - not by reading and doing one step at a
time. In a rush, the checks were done quickly and confirmed when
convenient.

Anyway, do whatever floats your boat, but don't read a checklist in
the pattern, please!

Kirk
66

On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:36:59 -0700, kirk.stant wrote:

Funny, cuz I have no clue what (W)USTALL stands for.

When I was flying an ASW-20, WUF (Water, Undercarriage, Flaps) was
considered enough of a check list by senior club members who were also
instructors. Now I fly an early Standard Libelle the checklist should be
pared down to U since it has no flaps and doesn't carry water. In
practise no checklist is needed: I simply follow our club practice of
making a 5 minute call and saying what direction I'm appearing from. Then
I make another call on downwind announcing my choice of circuit direction
and runway and confirming that my u/c is down and locked.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Mar 27, 3:36*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Mar 27, 9:48*am, toad wrote:



This has been beat to death here before, but IMHO shorter is better:
CBSIFTCBE before taking off, and (for me) WWW before landing (Wind
Water Wheel). *I don't need a piece of paper to remember those (yet!)

The rest is just good aviating.

Cheers (from snowy St Louis)

Kirk 66

I have never been able to memorize what CBSIFTCBE is supposed to mean
and a written checklist seems a perfect way for the pre-takeoff check
to be made.

(W)USTALL might have a couple of redundant checks, but it's short and
easy to remember.

Todd
3S

Funny, cuz I have no clue what (W)USTALL stands for.

Kirk
66

( Water )
Undercarriage
Speed
trim
airbrakes ( test them in case of a failure )
look
land

And I agree that it's all airmanship. I think these are taught to
primary students more in order to teach the airmanship than they are
needed as a "checklist" such as done in a complex aircraft.

On 3/27/2011 12:36 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Mar 27, 9:48 am, wrote:
This has been beat to death here before, but IMHO shorter is better:
CBSIFTCBE before taking off, and (for me) WWW before landing (Wind
Water Wheel). I don't need a piece of paper to remember those (yet!)

The rest is just good aviating.

Cheers (from snowy St Louis)

Kirk 66

I have never been able to memorize what CBSIFTCBE is supposed to mean
and a written checklist seems a perfect way for the pre-takeoff check
to be made.

(W)USTALL might have a couple of redundant checks, but it's short and
easy to remember.

Todd
3S

Funny, cuz I have no clue what (W)USTALL stands for.

Kirk
66

Wind
Undercarriage
Speed
Trim
Airbrakes
Lookout
Land

Speed, trim, and lookout are things you should have been doing all your
flight. Not clear why you need to be reminded of them when you are
landing.

If you are in the pattern and forget about the "airbrakes" or "land"
part, you should have stayed in bed that day!

That leaves wind and the wheel, and water also could be added. Maybe
also an announcement of your intentions on the radio.

On Mar 27, 12:50*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Mar 27, 12:31*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:



On Mar 26, 10:09*am, Andy wrote:

However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
takeoff or landing in a glider. *The check list goes away before I get
in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.

No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
checklist help in single pilot operations? *Crews of military aircraft
and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
required response for all situations requiring immediate action. *Only
after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
checklist. *Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.

I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. *When I can't remember
the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
remember to get the checklist out.

Andy

Checklists save lives in where complex, life threatening tasks are
involved such as flying, surgery, etc. *Its a proven fact. *I probably
don't need a checklist either when everything is going great. But when
my assembly is interrupted, or I have to get out of the cockpit on the
flight line for some reason, or I am landing in a field, or a whole
string of seemingly small things stack up to a situation, I want my
lists. *You are a very lucky man to have never forgotten to do
anything important in your flying career. *I wish I could say the
same.

For those interested, check out "The Checklist Manifesto" by Atul
Gawande

Matt Jr.

That's all great, but there aren't a lot of life threatening tasks
when landing a glider. *Heck, in a 1-26, the only one is checking the
direction of the wind prior to entering the pattern - and even that
could be considered airmanship, not a task. *In more complex gliders,
if you forget to dump your ballast you could fly the pattern too slow,
or if you leave the gear up it could get expensive fast, but what else
is life threatening - that isn't really just flying the glider?

I'm all for assembly checklists, and leave the house checklists, and
before leaving the glider field checklists - but gliders are simply
not complex enough to need lengthy inflight checklists. *If they make
you feel better, fine, but the downside is that while you are reading
an going through a list of items, you are not flying the glider and
looking out very much - which is A LOT MORE IMPORTANT in the landing
pattern.

The example with doctors is misleading. *I seriously doubt the surgeon
goes through a checklist before every action during an operation.
What he does is go through a pre-surgery checklist (like our assembly
check) and a post-surgery checklist (make sure nothing is left in the
patient), but he doesn't need a
1. grasp scalpel with right hand
2. place scalpel tip on patients skin
3. push until it bleeds
checklist!

In the complicated jets I used to fly in, our checklists were to make
sure all the required switches and checks were accomplished when
needed. *And they were mainly done as "after the fact" challenge
response to verify completion - not by reading and doing one step at a
time. In a rush, the checks were done quickly and confirmed when
convenient.

Anyway, do whatever floats your boat, but don't read a checklist in
the pattern, please!

Kirk
66

Kirk,
Did you read:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...a_fact_gawande

Here is a quote-
"Line infections are so common that they are considered a routine
complication. I.C.U.s put five million lines into patients each year,
and national statistics show that, after ten days, four per cent of
those lines become infected. Line infections occur in eighty thousand
people a year in the United States, and are fatal between five and
twenty-eight per cent of the time, depending on how sick one is at the
start."

OK, now here are the steps-
(1) wash hands with soap,
(2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic,
(3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient,
(4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and
(5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in.

Clearly these are simple, easy to remember things that don't need a
checklist. But they started using a checklist anyway-

"the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So
they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line
infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in
this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections
and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."

Agree with most of your comments, BTW, but checklists are sometimes
useful for even the simple things.

Brian

On 3/27/2011 12:50 PM, kirk.stant wrote:

That's all great, but there aren't a lot of life threatening tasks
when landing a glider. Heck, in a 1-26, the only one is checking the
direction of the wind prior to entering the pattern - and even that
could be considered airmanship, not a task. In more complex gliders,
if you forget to dump your ballast you could fly the pattern too slow,
or if you leave the gear up it could get expensive fast, but what else
is life threatening - that isn't really just flying the glider?

In my glider, I use a pre-landing checklist (mnemonic, not written) that
has water, wheel, flaps, airbrakes, radio on it. I used to think it was
"just flying" to remember such a short list ("don't need no stinking
mnemonics"), but after forgetting every one of those over the course of
many years, some of them several times, I changed my mind. Had I been
using a checklist the entire time, I would have forgotten fewer times.

So far, I've gotten away with without serious problems, but the
potential for escalating a poor situation to a life threatening one is
the

* Water on board: that means a much faster landing, longer roll out, a
problem even on a runway; in an off-airport landing, it's double
trouble, with the greater chance of damage and gear collapse.

* landing gear not extended: that puts your bottom awfully close to the
rocks and more in a dirt field landing, and offers little protection for
your spine if you hit hard on runway. Oh yeah, the wheel brake doesn't
work at all, either, so let's hope you didn't land long.

* flaps still in cruise: this is a bit like landing with water, as
you'll probably hit pretty hard because the usual flare attitude won't
do much to arrest your downward motion. At least the wheel brake doesn't
have to slow down a couple hundred pounds of water.

* Airbrakes: they can malfunction, so it's good to know that before you
really need them; also, opening them will trigger your gear alarm, and
maybe prevent that problem, too.

* Radio: if it's set on the wrong frequency, or still turned off because
the chatter was distracting you during that low save 30 minutes ago, you
might not be aware of what's going on at the airport. Could be a problem...

I don't do the list in the pattern, but as I approach the airport. I use
the radio starting several miles away, with the flaps, airbrakes, and
wheel when I'm near the pattern. I'm planning to go to a nifty written
checklist like the one Mat Herron posted, as the more I fly, the more
aware I am that some structure helps.

I have to admit, when I do fly a fixed gear, unflapped, waterless
glider, no radio, it does seem so simple: show up the airport, look
around, land.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

At 20:06 27 March 2011, Greg Arnold wrote:


Wind
Undercarriage
Speed
Trim
Airbrakes
Lookout
Land

If I were using this list I would change it as follows

W ater
U ndercarriage
F laps
S peed
T rim
A irbrakes
R adio Intentions
E nter Pattern

Carry it out near and above your selected IP and have it over with before
pattern altitude.

Kirk,
Did you read:http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...a_fact_gawande

Here is a quote-
"Line infections are so common that they are considered a routine
complication. I.C.U.s put five million lines into patients each year,
and national statistics show that, after ten days, four per cent of
those lines become infected. Line infections occur in eighty thousand
people a year in the United States, and are fatal between five and
twenty-eight per cent of the time, depending on how sick one is at the
start."

OK, now here are the steps-
(1) wash hands with soap,
(2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic,
(3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient,
(4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and
(5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in.

Clearly these are simple, easy to remember things that don't need a
checklist. But they started using a checklist anyway-

"the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So
they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line
infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in
this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections
and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."

Agree with most of your comments, BTW, but checklists are sometimes
useful for even the simple things.

Brian

Sorry, that's not a checklist, that a procedure.

And reading some of the "checklists" I see on RAS, they are also more
"procedures" instead of checklists.

WUFSTALL is getting awfully close to a procedure for me.

Kirk
66