When is too many at a glider meet

Boy, is this a tough crowd!

For the record, the number of 80 entrants was from someone participating in the event, but they expected some no-shows. So I do not apologize for that information.

Second, I didn't make a "thinly veiled" criticism of the event, I DIRECTLY criticized it!

Third, calling me a "troll" or an "asshole" or whatever is childish and reflects much more on the author than myself. Get real, try being an adult for a change!

Finally, only one of you, indirectly, addressed the original question: how many is too many? Having an efficiently run organization has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this issue!! That only means the gliders are launched faster; once they are in the air the event organizer is out of the picture. Most of you guys are trying to defend Bruno - that IS NOT the issue! The issue is how many gliders can a site accommodate safely. And the Big Sky theory is BUNK! You get a marginal day and that theory is out the window. And on good days it is bunk as well; lift organizes itself into streets that pilots fly at high speed at each other.

Safety just doesn't seem to be a high priority here - one of my detractors here has been "disinvited" from an airport for repeated unsafe flying practices.

Okay, fire away, I can take it.

Tom

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 9:40:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
Boy, is this a tough crowd!

For the record, the number of 80 entrants was from someone participating in the event, but they expected some no-shows. So I do not apologize for that information.

Second, I didn't make a "thinly veiled" criticism of the event, I DIRECTLY criticized it!

Third, calling me a "troll" or an "asshole" or whatever is childish and reflects much more on the author than myself. Get real, try being an adult for a change!

Finally, only one of you, indirectly, addressed the original question: how many is too many? Having an efficiently run organization has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this issue!! That only means the gliders are launched faster; once they are in the air the event organizer is out of the picture. Most of you guys are trying to defend Bruno - that IS NOT the issue! The issue is how many gliders can a site accommodate safely. And the Big Sky theory is BUNK! You get a marginal day and that theory is out the window. And on good days it is bunk as well; lift organizes itself into streets that pilots fly at high speed at each other.

Safety just doesn't seem to be a high priority here - one of my detractors here has been "disinvited" from an airport for repeated unsafe flying practices.

Okay, fire away, I can take it.

Tom

Uh oh. He's found the caps lock key.

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 10:08:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 9:40:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
Boy, is this a tough crowd!

For the record, the number of 80 entrants was from someone participating in the event, but they expected some no-shows. So I do not apologize for that information.

Second, I didn't make a "thinly veiled" criticism of the event, I DIRECTLY criticized it!

Third, calling me a "troll" or an "asshole" or whatever is childish and reflects much more on the author than myself. Get real, try being an adult for a change!

Finally, only one of you, indirectly, addressed the original question: how many is too many? Having an efficiently run organization has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this issue!! That only means the gliders are launched faster; once they are in the air the event organizer is out of the picture. Most of you guys are trying to defend Bruno - that IS NOT the issue! The issue is how many gliders can a site accommodate safely. And the Big Sky theory is BUNK! You get a marginal day and that theory is out the window. And on good days it is bunk as well; lift organizes itself into streets that pilots fly at high speed at each other.

Safety just doesn't seem to be a high priority here - one of my detractors here has been "disinvited" from an airport for repeated unsafe flying practices.

Okay, fire away, I can take it.

Tom

Uh oh. He's found the caps lock key.

Come on Darryl, is that your BEST comeback? No "asshole" or "jerk" or "idiot" pejorative? Really, you can do BETTER!

Ok Tom, I'll bite, as I participated in the event twice and I also had concerns before I participated the first time.
The location and organizers has *everything* to do with how many is too many.
In the case of the Nephi events, there were multiple factors which made the high number of participants a non issue:
1- PowerFlarm mandatory. This mad a HUGE difference. I just can't say enough on how much it reduces the risk of mid air.
2 - line holds. The organizers held the line whenever there was even a minor congestion over the field.
3 - no start gate, which means everyone left once they topped out in the first thermal.
4 - multiple ranges and directions to go, so everyone spread quickly.
5- multiple options to land in case of congestion in the pattern: main runway, the grass parallel to the runway, a cross runway.
6 - since it wasn't a contest, most pilots only flew some of the days, making the max number of gliders flying on any given day at no more than 50.

So to answer your question, for Nephi OLC camp, 60 gliders are just about right.

Ramy

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 10:18:48 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 10:08:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 9:40:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
Boy, is this a tough crowd!

For the record, the number of 80 entrants was from someone participating in the event, but they expected some no-shows. So I do not apologize for that information.

Second, I didn't make a "thinly veiled" criticism of the event, I DIRECTLY criticized it!

Third, calling me a "troll" or an "asshole" or whatever is childish and reflects much more on the author than myself. Get real, try being an adult for a change!

Finally, only one of you, indirectly, addressed the original question: how many is too many? Having an efficiently run organization has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this issue!! That only means the gliders are launched faster; once they are in the air the event organizer is out of the picture.. Most of you guys are trying to defend Bruno - that IS NOT the issue! The issue is how many gliders can a site accommodate safely. And the Big Sky theory is BUNK! You get a marginal day and that theory is out the window. And on good days it is bunk as well; lift organizes itself into streets that pilots fly at high speed at each other.

Safety just doesn't seem to be a high priority here - one of my detractors here has been "disinvited" from an airport for repeated unsafe flying practices.

Okay, fire away, I can take it.

Tom

Uh oh. He's found the caps lock key.

Come on Darryl, is that your BEST comeback? No "asshole" or "jerk" or "idiot" pejorative? Really, you can do BETTER!

I think everybody here takes the asshole, jerk and idiot part as given....

"2G" wrote in message
...

Boy, is this a tough crowd!

For the record, the number of 80 entrants was from someone participating in
the event, but they expected some no-shows. So I do not apologize for that
information.

Second, I didn't make a "thinly veiled" criticism of the event, I DIRECTLY
criticized it!

Third, calling me a "troll" or an "asshole" or whatever is childish and
reflects much more on the author than myself. Get real, try being an adult
for a change!

Finally, only one of you, indirectly, addressed the original question: how
many is too many? Having an efficiently run organization has ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING to do with this issue!! That only means the gliders are launched
faster; once they are in the air the event organizer is out of the picture.
Most of you guys are trying to defend Bruno - that IS NOT the issue! The
issue is how many gliders can a site accommodate safely. And the Big Sky
theory is BUNK! You get a marginal day and that theory is out the window.
And on good days it is bunk as well; lift organizes itself into streets that
pilots fly at high speed at each other.

Safety just doesn't seem to be a high priority here - one of my detractors
here has been "disinvited" from an airport for repeated unsafe flying
practices.

Okay, fire away, I can take it.

Tom

This was an SSA sanctioned air meet, though not a ranking competition. The
SSA sanction limit of 65 was in effect as well as the SSA pilot waivers and
insurance requirements. As I approved this sanction, I did take time to
verify attendance with the organizers following your original post.

As to how many gliders are too many for a particular venue, there are some
sensible things to consider before entertaining a waiver above the sanction
limit. There are also sensible reasons to set a lower limit. These
organizers have the upcoming Logan Mountain Flying Camp and have set a limit
of 40 for this sanctioned event.

I think there are a few housekeeping items the SSA needs to consider
regarding the sanctions of OLC/XC and other themed camps, just to clarify
the sanction boundaries and requirements.

Regards,

Frank Whiteley
SSA Director, Region 9
970-330-2050 7am-10pm MDT

I think everybody here takes the asshole, jerk and idiot part as given.....

Well, I guess that was your BEST comeback! Good luck next time!

Ramy,

What you are saying, as I see it, is that FLARM permits a higher density of gliders than without. In general, I agree with that. I would like to see pilot reports of how FLARM worked out at this event. My general safety approach, for an idiotic assholic jerk, is that you MUST error on the side of safety. Personally, I would put the number at 40, but at least you gave me a number unlike the rest.

Tom

Boy, is this a tough crowd!

People call it like they see it, true.

For the record, the number of 80 entrants was from someone participating in the event, but they expected some no-shows. So I do not apologize for that information.

Apology noted. Also for the record, the SSA event page clearly stated the 65 limit and that the event was oversubscribed. Also, the participant list detailed "confirmed" vs "wait list" so no matter what bad info you may have received, it would have been simple to verify that the info was bad before firing off a post. This is a public forum and predicting fatalities is about as irresponsible as you can get when your facts are wrong.

Second, I didn't make a "thinly veiled" criticism of the event, I DIRECTLY criticized it!

And you didn't have the facts on your side (with regard to actual participants, nor any specific knowledge of the airport facilities, operations or surrounding landable fields when you did it so I don't see how this clarification represents an improvement.

Third, calling me a "troll" or an "asshole" or whatever is childish and reflects much more on the author than myself. Get real, try being an adult for a change!

Okay, but you kind of had it coming by predicting fatalities and then doubling down when the facts turned against you.

Finally, only one of you, indirectly, addressed the original question: how many is too many? Having an efficiently run organization has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this issue!! That only means the gliders are launched faster; once they are in the air the event organizer is out of the picture. Most of you guys are trying to defend Bruno - that IS NOT the issue! The issue is how many gliders can a site accommodate safely. And the Big Sky theory is BUNK! You get a marginal day and that theory is out the window. And on good days it is bunk as well; lift organizes itself into streets that pilots fly at high speed at each other.

I think you mostly missed the point. The criticism isn't with the theoretical question of what is the maximum capacity of a glider site or even asking it about a specific site. It was that you didn't ask the question, you asserted an answer without any demonstrable knowledge of the circumstances of the event or even the correct number of participants.

Specifically, for Nephi, it is really hard to construct a scenario where 60 (or 80) gliders launched 90-plus minutes apart and flying at altitudes from 6,000 to as much as 17,000 feet all get knocked out of the sky by a storm at exactly the same time (where none of them have headed out on course to escape the approaching storm) such that none can orbit more than 30 seconds, all the ground help is incapacitated, everyone lands midfield and just sits in their glider and no one decides to use the cross runway, the 7000x250 feet of turf to the west, the infield or any of the three dozen landable fields within range of the downwind entry point. Is there a theoretical limit? Probably, but your "IMHO" assertion was, whether you meant it or not, a misinformed slander of an event that has had a lot of thought put into operations and specific lessons from prior events. Also, raising a midair concern and reiterating it now for an event that was PowerFLARM mandatory, seems particularly ill-advised (and "ready!-fire!-aim!).

Safety just doesn't seem to be a high priority here - one of my detractors here has been "disinvited" from an airport for repeated unsafe flying practices.

Not so - safety gets discussed regularly on r.a.s, generally with a great deal of seriousness. Also, an ad hominem criticism of the flying skills of a poster doesn't make his points incorrect nor does it validate the comment from you he might be criticizing. It's almost entirely irrelevant and comes across as a kind of "your momma" retort.

Okay, fire away, I can take it.

If you insist. :-)

Really Tom, it's not asking questions about safe operations that gets people jumping to defend Nephi, it's the assertion that they did it wrong and you know better. You don't. Your facts were wrong and your theories about what might happen were inconsistent with the operations and airport layout. When you double down on it you just dig the hole deeper. It is possible that some of the responses you got didn't come from daredevil morons who lack your insight or depth of experience operating large-scale glider events at Nephi or anywhere else.

There's a vast difference between making the last debating point and being right. A little active listening would go a long way. This is a public forum and wild assertions, if they stand uncorrected, can do damage to events, reputations and the sport more broadly.

With regards,

Andy
9B

Probably already said but Lasham launch over 100 in their annual comp,
every year. It is what they have done for years without too many problems.
If the organisation know what they are doing and the pilots are sensible it
isn't a problem.

As well as 100 or so regularly at the Lasham comps, there are over that number based there all the time, with an organised grid launch on good weekend days (as Nigel P already mentioned).

The home-based gliders can still fly during the competition week, launching before and after the main grid, so sometimes the continuous stream may be 150 to 200.

By coincidence, before this discussion started I watched someone's video on YouTube, starting and ending at Nephi. It didn't look like a small place to me.

People can land sensibly in rather smaller areas without real drama. A retrieve instruction was go along the road to - for about 20 km until you come to what looks like a gliding club. There were about 30 juniors in about 350m by 150m. Or at a pre-Worlds 18 or 20 at a small strip in a quarry at the side of a lake.

One of the biggest mass arrivals I've seen was about 60 gliders in 3 or 4 minutes, but even that only used a fraction of the space available. mostly direct landings rather than circuits. But for those doing circuits the instructions should avoid clashing with direct landings anyway.

I'm not counselling complacency, and people do need to keep their wits about them, but at least avoid wildly exaggerating the risks.