AH-64 vs P-51

Should some day some how a P-51 come to fight an AH-64, who would
win the fight?

Assume the combat starts with both sides seeing the other at beyond
gun range. Assume equal pilot skill. Assume the only missiles on the
AH-64 are some TOWs.

-Thanks

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote
Should some day some how a P-51 come to fight an AH-64, who would
win the fight?

Assume the combat starts with both sides seeing the other at beyond
gun range. Assume equal pilot skill. Assume the only missiles on the
AH-64 are some TOWs.

The AH is probably toast but it's certainly no easy engagement. A propeller
driven gun fighter is effective for engaging attack helos flying in NOE but
they are tough targets. Because the AH will be operating at very low
altitude, the fighter is pretty much limited to staying within the plane of
the helo. High side runs have the real possiblity of an Airframe-Ground
Intersection.

The reason the P-51 probably wins is because the AH doesn't make a very
precise gun platform. I understand that there's considerable flexing between
the helmet sight and the chain gun, making alignment difficult. I hope
someone who actually knows will contribute.

On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 06:26:45 -0500, "Paul F Austin"
wrote:


"Charles Talleyrand" wrote
Should some day some how a P-51 come to fight an AH-64, who would
win the fight?

Assume the combat starts with both sides seeing the other at beyond
gun range. Assume equal pilot skill. Assume the only missiles on the
AH-64 are some TOWs.

The AH is probably toast but it's certainly no easy engagement. A propeller
driven gun fighter is effective for engaging attack helos flying in NOE but
they are tough targets. Because the AH will be operating at very low
altitude, the fighter is pretty much limited to staying within the plane of
the helo. High side runs have the real possiblity of an Airframe-Ground
Intersection.

The reason the P-51 probably wins is because the AH doesn't make a very
precise gun platform. I understand that there's considerable flexing between
the helmet sight and the chain gun, making alignment difficult. I hope
someone who actually knows will contribute.


Guns only I don't pretend to know but based on the cockpit video I've
seen of them trying to shoot a guy on the ground with it. . .well it's
definitely not a sniper rifle :-) But I sure as hell wouldn't want to
be the guy on the ground doing the chaingun cha-cha.

"Paul F Austin" wrote in message .. .
"Charles Talleyrand" wrote
Should some day some how a P-51 come to fight an AH-64, who would
win the fight?

Assume the combat starts with both sides seeing the other at beyond
gun range. Assume equal pilot skill. Assume the only missiles on the
AH-64 are some TOWs.

The AH is probably toast but it's certainly no easy engagement.

Isn't the AH-64 supposed to be armoured against 12.7mm ammo? The P-51
certainly wouldn't be protected against the 30mm HEDP fired by the
helo. It would be a question of whether the helo could land a hit
before being slowly chewed to pieces by multiple .50 strikes.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

"Tony Williams" wrote in message
m...

Isn't the AH-64 supposed to be armoured against 12.7mm ammo? The P-51
certainly wouldn't be protected against the 30mm HEDP fired by the
helo. It would be a question of whether the helo could land a hit
before being slowly chewed to pieces by multiple .50 strikes.

Tony Williams



You'd also wonder how many hits the rotor blades and hub could sustain
before coming apart.


Odds are the Mustang would be firing down on the helo, towards the more
exposed critical components. Most of the armour would be
positioned for protection from ground fire underneath.




Cheers


Dave Kearton

In article ,
says...

"Tony Williams" wrote in message
m...

Isn't the AH-64 supposed to be armoured against 12.7mm ammo? The P-51
certainly wouldn't be protected against the 30mm HEDP fired by the
helo. It would be a question of whether the helo could land a hit
before being slowly chewed to pieces by multiple .50 strikes.

Tony Williams



You'd also wonder how many hits the rotor blades and hub could sustain
before coming apart.


Odds are the Mustang would be firing down on the helo, towards the more
exposed critical components. Most of the armour would be
positioned for protection from ground fire underneath.

If the helo was flying low/NOE, it'd be a brave Mustang pilot who made a
diving attack.

From: Abe


Odds are the Mustang would be firing down on the helo, towards the more
exposed critical components. Most of the armour would be
positioned for protection from ground fire underneath.

If the helo was flying low/NOE, it'd be a brave Mustang pilot who made a
diving attack.

It happened many times during WW2 and Korea just not against helicopters. Have
you never heard of a strafing run? P-51s made a lot of runs against low flying
aircraft as well as stationary targets.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"I believe Abe wrote the following;
If the helo was flying low/NOE, it'd be a brave Mustang pilot who made
a
diving attack.


Why do you say this? How in the world do you think we attacked ground
targets? And we weren't all brave.

Howard Austin

Charles Talleyrand wrote:

Should some day some how a P-51 come to fight an AH-64, who would
win the fight?

Assume the combat starts with both sides seeing the other at beyond
gun range. Assume equal pilot skill. Assume the only missiles on the
AH-64 are some TOWs.

-Thanks


Based on the ROE that you've laid down, such an engagement wouldn't occur at all.

The Apache isn't capable of firing TOWs (no controller in the cockpit to
steer the missile). Hellfire might be able to hit the Mustang within a
very narrow set of circumstances. Same thing with gun. If it's a
tail-away or head-on shot, the Apache might be able to hit the P-51. The
gun's ballistics and computer sight could handle it. If the Mustang were
crossing the AH-64's line of sight, then the slew rate on the gun
wouldn't be able to keep up.

Air-to-air engagements aren't in the training syllabus for Apache
pilots. If the AH-64 encounters hostile fast-movers its SOP is to dodge
and run and call for friendly air cover.

Vygg

Sit over the top of the helo and wait for the right time. Fire down at
him from above. Know your dive recovery limits. High speed isn't
needed unless his air cover is around. 50 cal rain a'coming.
FWIW here's a funy air anti-helo story. I was in the 307th TFS at
Homestead in 1969 when an Army colonel dropped in from Fort Hood. He
wanted some F4s to come out and make unannounced (!) gun passes on
their Hueys. We thought about this for oh maybe ten seconds and then
cautiously asked him if he'd discussed it with the Huey pilots. No, he
hadn't. We said gently that in combat we'd be doing at least 450 knots
in the gun passes and pulling up sharply over them to avoid getting in
their sights (no matter how rudimentary). We also commented that heavy
jets like the F4 churned up a very strong vortex during such a pull-up
and we wondered if that would give their rotor blades any problems. He
left and we never heard any more about that program . . .
Walt BJ