Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 8:17:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:50:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.

I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.

What do you mean by "large?"

12.8V 200AH - any recommendations?

https://www.bioennopower.com/collect...bs-blf-12200as

wrote on 9/13/2020 8:17 PM:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:50:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.

I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.

What do you mean by "large?"

12.8V 200AH - any recommendations?

Battle Born 100 AH units can be use in parallel, and the Perlan team chose them
for the Perlan glider:

https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq/

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Jfitch,

What are you using to charge it? The manufacturer seems to recommend an ordinary 13.8 volt switching power supply which makes sense with the BMS handling the rest of the work

Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.

Most lithium cell manufacturers recommended charge voltage of 14.2 - 14.6V (for four cells), 13.8 will charge them but not as fast or fully. If you do not go high enough, the BMS will not work properly (as most of the small ones are top balancing). The longevity tests I've seen suggest 14.2V as the best compromise. I've been using this charger:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It can be set for proper voltages for LFP, SLA, flooded, or pretty much anything. It is a true connect and forget charger, with correct float voltages for any chemistry including lithium. Like the Powersonic battery, there is a free phone app (somewhat better than Powersonic's) that connects with Bluetooth, delivers status and history and allows wide configuration of all parameters, though it can be operated very simply with the one button on the top. It's default LFP program is 14.2V CC charge, and 13.5V float (effectively disconnected) which is perfect. A bit more than a $20 Chinese charger, but it is less likely to burn your house down .

The BMS will disconnect if the high charge voltage is exceeded, but that is pretty high on the Powersonic (15.2V according to their spec). You really should not depend on this routinely, hard on the cells.

Another point to remember about lithium is that unlike SLA, they like to be operated and stored in the middle of the charge range. On the last flight of the weekend I do not recharge (it will be about 50% SOC), leave it that way until I am going to fly again. With the above charger, I normally charge at the 2A setting, but you can run it at 5A for a quicker charge (in the morning when you have forgotten to charge it!). The battery will accept it, a bit harder on it maybe but it is OK to do when needed. LFP will charge at full current until about 95% SOC.

SLA batteries need to be charged fully immediately after use, and stored that way or they will die early.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:36:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Jfitch,

What are you using to charge it? The manufacturer seems to recommend an ordinary 13.8 volt switching power supply which makes sense with the BMS handling the rest of the work

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 9:11:45 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Most lithium cell manufacturers recommended charge voltage of 14.2 - 14.6V (for four cells), 13.8 will charge them but not as fast or fully. If you do not go high enough, the BMS will not work properly (as most of the small ones are top balancing). The longevity tests I've seen suggest 14.2V as the best compromise. I've been using this charger:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It can be set for proper voltages for LFP, SLA, flooded, or pretty much anything. It is a true connect and forget charger, with correct float voltages for any chemistry including lithium. Like the Powersonic battery, there is a free phone app (somewhat better than Powersonic's) that connects with Bluetooth, delivers status and history and allows wide configuration of all parameters, though it can be operated very simply with the one button on the top. It's default LFP program is 14.2V CC charge, and 13.5V float (effectively disconnected) which is perfect. A bit more than a $20 Chinese charger, but it is less likely to burn your house down .

The BMS will disconnect if the high charge voltage is exceeded, but that is pretty high on the Powersonic (15.2V according to their spec). You really should not depend on this routinely, hard on the cells.

Another point to remember about lithium is that unlike SLA, they like to be operated and stored in the middle of the charge range. On the last flight of the weekend I do not recharge (it will be about 50% SOC), leave it that way until I am going to fly again. With the above charger, I normally charge at the 2A setting, but you can run it at 5A for a quicker charge (in the morning when you have forgotten to charge it!). The battery will accept it, a bit harder on it maybe but it is OK to do when needed. LFP will charge at full current until about 95% SOC.

SLA batteries need to be charged fully immediately after use, and stored that way or they will die early.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:36:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Jfitch,

What are you using to charge it? The manufacturer seems to recommend an ordinary 13.8 volt switching power supply which makes sense with the BMS handling the rest of the work

The X2 Pro AC/DC charger I use can also discharge a lithium battery to 50% for storage:
https://hitecrcd.com/products/charge...harger/product
Unfortunately, the X2 has been discontinued and replaced by the X4 at a considerably higher price:
https://hitecrcd.com/products/charge...harger/product
I rarely charge two batteries at once and can't conceive of charging 4 simultaneously (the RC crowd, however, can). The X2 is still for sale, however:
https://www.amazon.com/Hitec-RCD-Bla.../dp/B075MFD6H3

Tom

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.

Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...y-Warranty.pdf

Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...y-Warranty.pdf

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture..
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...y-Warranty.pdf

I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:

Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.

And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.

Directly quoted from your own link:

"Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer�) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product�) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period�) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."

Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...y-Warranty.pdf
I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:

Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.

And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.