Meeting to discuss FLARM in the USA

How do you know what you have detected *all* threats in time.

Because nobody has ever hit me. Therefore I and/or the other pilots
have /always/ managed to detect and deal with threats successfully.

/ALL/ the pilots who died here in Europe so far have always successfully
detected and dealt with threats.

Except the last one.

look at it from the other side.

If you and the people around you do everything right, you won't hear flarm.

If you or somebody around you makes a mistake you will hear the alarm.

The trick is to keep the instrument silent. This means there is zero extra cockpit load if you keep a proper look-out.

People against flarm are worried that there view of themselves as a "superpilot" that never needs instruments is going to have a rude awakening, because the sound of the buzzer means that somebody failed.

On Oct 27, 10:16 pm, " wrote:
, and don't get me started on the cheap "transponder
sniffer" devices... ;-)

Urs --- FLARM

Thanks for joining the discussion and for the factual input on FLARM.

Cheap transponder sniffing devices such as the Zaon MRX that I use in
my glider and my airplane can do something that FLARM cannot do. They
can warn of the proximity of an aircraft with transponder but no FLAM.

In over 25 years of flying gliders I have had many many more near
misses with powered aircraft than with other gliders. It was my last
experience of a King Air going through my gaggle with 2 other glider
that convinced me to buy the Zaon.

I'll be the first to admit that Xaon MRX would be useless if all
gliders had transponders. The designer was approached to see if an
intelligent muting alogorith could be added but he responded there was
insufficient processing power in that unit. So integrate the sniffer
with FLARM and provide intelligent muting of transponder alerts then
you would have a US market.


Andy

On 29 Oct, 07:25, Marian Aldenhövel wrote:
Hi,

there is no "concentrating": you go about your

flying until it alerts you.

... at which point, if I interpret the pictures atwww.flarm.com
correctly, you have to look at the thing to get an idea of where it
thinks trouble is coming from, then work out of its real or not, then
work out what to do?

About the "work out what to do": Yes. You will definitely have to work
that out. Quickly. Without FLARM you would have to do it more quickly
when you notice the traffic (or just the conflict, if you had seen them
before) without electronic aid a few moments later. I prefer to have
more time.

As I said on my first post in this thread, my only contact with flarm
has been through an instructor I know who occasionally teaches at a
site which has fitted it to two-seaters. He reports that, while ridge
soaring, he gets a huge number of false alarms: alerts for gliders
which aren't there at all, or whose turns at the end of a ridge beat
are being misinterpreted. So his students end up spending time
checking up false alarms ... time which they could be using to look
out better for real things?

I can see that I need to see what it's like myself, so I'm going to
have a go in one one these two seaters as soon as I can manage it.

Ian

On 28 Oct, 23:24, Dan G wrote:

Lasham, by contrast, did find that Flarm met their needs (no doubt
partly motivated by the fatal collision there in 2004). They're a flat-
land thermal site - probably the busiest in the UK. I think the fact
that their entire fleet (some thirty gliders and tugs) has been fitted
with Flarm, and that many more units are being fitted to the private
fleet there, is a strong endorsement.

I note the point. Lasham, however, does sometimes seem to be a
slightly faddy place. It's not that long ago that they were telling us
all that motor gliders were the only way to do ab-initio training.

Are they making flarm mandatory for all private gliders on site?

Ian

On 28 Oct, 15:07, Robert Danewid
wrote:
There are ca 9 000 FLARM units in use in Europe, and all who use them
seems to be in favour of it.

"In favour of" will soon be irrelevant, if it isn't already. With that
number around, the accident statistics should soon make the balance
between genuine information and distraction clear ... if it hasn't
already done so.

Ian

Andy wrote:

I'll be the first to admit that Xaon MRX would be useless if all
gliders had transponders. The designer was approached to see if an
intelligent muting alogorith could be added but he responded there was
insufficient processing power in that unit.

If gliders everywhere were assigned a separate code, like the 0440 in
Minden, it might be a much easier task. Nearby gliders would not
generate alerts, for example, while airplanes using the 1200 code would be.

So integrate the sniffer
with FLARM and provide intelligent muting of transponder alerts then
you would have a US market.

Yes! And if the logger were IGC approved, it would be an even bigger market.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Oct 29, 6:02 pm, Ian wrote:
I note the point. Lasham, however, does sometimes seem to be a
slightly faddy place. It's not that long ago that they were telling us
all that motor gliders were the only way to do ab-initio training.

Yes, and they once claimed to have trained to someone to solo standard
on a simulator. Not heard of it since. However the loss of Alan
Purnell in a mid-air in 2004 must be a strongly motivating factor. He
was a very experienced pilot and instructor - but that's not always
enough.

Are they making flarm mandatory for all private gliders on site?

No, in fact the take-up rate in the private fleet seems quite low. I
think a lot of people are waiting for the IGC-approved Flarm to come
out. But I do know of other gliders based elsewhere (e.g. two at
Dunstable) which are now Flarm-equipped because Lasham's move has jump-
started the market in the UK.


Dan

Eric Greenwell skrev:
Buy a Colibri FLARM and you have it!

Robert Danewid
AS 28-18E RD

Yes! And if the logger were IGC approved, it would be an even bigger
market.

Those concerns are fairly universal, and because they are valid, you often get
people arguing one side of the story vociferously. In reality, when you analyse
it objectively, as I said it is a useful tool. So looking at the concerns -

1 -People who are susceptible to distraction will get distracted. The cause of
the distraction is not the problem there.

2- Complacency is very dangerous. Flarm alarm is a notice that you need your
eyes out of the cockpit and working on what the situation is - who should take
what action etc. Pilots who disregard their own safety may blame gadgets, but
again they are not the problem.

3 - As you commented, you need time to work out what to to, the more time you
have the better. Right of way is a really good , useful concept but personal
preference is for being alive rather than right about "the other guy should have
given way". I have given way on final approach for some witless power XC student
who was so intent on making his touch and go he had not remembered to switch
frequencies, or looked up from the runway at any point after the airfield came
into view. He never noticed the gliders in the circuit, probably was not aware
of winching going on. I sincerely hope he is now a safer, more experienced pilot
than the chap who no doubt reported an uneventful flight that day. Who knows,
but Flarm is unlikely to help with these situations because it is unlikely that
all/any of the school planes will get Flarm installed.

So yes, there is no substitute for the MK1 eyeball, but, like many other things
in the cockpit, Flarm can certainly help. Those whose bad habits are exacerbated
by toys may just benefit too. Even if indirectly, because if the other guy has
Flarm at least they will generally be taking evasive action. I really can't see
how you can lose.


Dan G wrote:
On Oct 28, 8:23 pm, Ian wrote:
I agree with everything you say. I only have three concerns:

Those are quite common ones, but I don't think they hold much water.
Flarm's beep is quite distinctive and no pilot would ever have a
problem discerning it from his vario. The display is a bit small from
the units I've looked at, but clear. It uses the o'clock system - it
lights up to let you know another Flarm equipped glider is about, and
only beeps if it thinks there's a problem. There's no need to touch
the unit in flight. I've not heard of a pilot who has fitted Flarm and
stopped looking out - pilots aren't _that_ stupid.

If your Flarm is beeping at you, paying attention to it should be your
top priority - then searching for the conflict, and figuring out what
to do as per normal when you've sighted it.


Dan