Meeting to discuss FLARM in the USA

Hi,

FLARM has become extremely popular in several regions of the world (Europe,
and Australia, and ...?), but it has not been "allowed" in the USA so far.
However, there are several gliders flying with FLARM here in the USA. It is
a great technology solution and safety enhancer. But technical and
liability hurdles exist here in the USA. Everyone that I've talked to that
uses FLARM in their glider loves it - especially in contests or at crowded
soaring sites, or along crowded ridges.

I would like to invite you to an informal brainstorming session on "How we
can make FLARM (or something similar) work here in the USA". The meeting
will be held on Wednesday, February 13th, 2008, from 4 to 5 PM in a small
conference room in the convention center that is hosting the SSA Convention.
Details on the meeting location will be available in the future.

This is not a marketing discussion and I will not be promoting any products.
The goal is to gather technical people together to figure out how we can use
FLARM in the USA.

Topics may include:
- FLARM Europe and FLARM Australia (OzFLARM) use different frequencies (I
think) - will either work here? If so, which one should we use?
- The FCC may (or may not) need to be contacted to figure out what
frequency to use. Or do we want to just start using it without permission
and remain "under the radar". (I prefer that it be approved by the FCC and
FLARM.)
- FLARM in Europe doesn't seem to want to allow its use here. What can we
do to change their mind? Can it be licensed and built here in the USA as it
is in Australia?
- Can we create or use a different technology that would also work for
small aircraft?
- How do the FAA's plans to implement ADSB impact this discussion? In the
short run that looks like an extremely expensive solution for the aircraft
owner.

Since I could potentially benefit from the sale of FLARM devices, I would
prefer not to run the meeting. Does anyone else want to volunteer to run
it - or co-run it? Eric Greenwell and/or Tom Serkowski come to mind as
technology minded glider pilots that may be good for the job.

I am looking forward to the meeting already. I hope you will join us.
There is no need to RSVP. My guess is that the room will be very full.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Paul Remde wrote:
FLARM has become extremely popular in several regions of the world (Europe,
and Australia, and ...?), but it has not been "allowed" in the USA so far.
However, there are several gliders flying with FLARM here in the USA. It is
a great technology solution and safety enhancer. But technical and
liability hurdles exist here in the USA. Everyone that I've talked to that
uses FLARM in their glider loves it - especially in contests or at crowded
soaring sites, or along crowded ridges.

European FLARM operates in the 868.0 to 868.6 MHz range, Australian
OzFLARMs operate in the 915.0 to 928.0 MHz range. The legal range in
the US would be 902.0 to 928.0 MHz, and the combination of the
transmitter and antenna must be certified by the FCC.

European FLARMs are definitely illegal in the US, as they are smack in
the middle of the licensed commercial Specialized Mobile Radio (SMR)
band. If there is interference in that band (and an airborne
transmitter may interfere over a wide area), the FCC will mount a real
effort to track it down. OzFLARM may be legal, but only if the
transmitter is FCC certified, which includes limits on duty cycle which
the FLARM protocol may or may not meet.

- How do the FAA's plans to implement ADSB impact this discussion? In the
short run that looks like an extremely expensive solution for the aircraft
owner.

ADS-B is, in general, a better solution for US pilots, since it will
warn of glider vs. glider and glider vs. other aircraft collisions, and
will ultimately (~2020) be required for access to certain kinds of
airspace. Technically it is not all that much more difficult to
implement than FLARM. Certification requirements are far more onerous,
and the market for a low power unit suitable for gliders, balloons,
sport aircraft, etc., just doesn't exist at the moment. I suggest you
get someone in the room with ADS-B technical knowledge, like Bernald
Smith (who will almost certainly be at the convention) to discuss that
option...

Marc

Subject: Meeting to discuss FLARM in the USAAuthor: Paul Remde paul@remde.=
usDate/Time: 17:30 25 October 2007



Topics may include:- FLARM in Europe doesn't seem to want to allow its use =
here. What can we do to change their mind? Can it be licensed and built her=
e in the USA as it is in Australia?
I anticipate that any small European manufacturer will need some cast-iron =
guarantee that if they do a reasonnable job, they will not be sued bankcrup=
t in US courts. On a similar note I have just been reading in the BMJ about=
the perils of treating any US citizen. British medical defence unions curr=
ently will not support doctors to treat US citizens.
=20
I certainly would not want to sell an American a product which they may use=
to stop them colliding with each other. What would the US courts do about =
the two gliders that recently collided in Europe - at least one had non-ope=
rational FLARM?
=20
I am slightly surprised that the Germans are willing to sell you gliders.
=20
Rory
__________________________________________________ _______________
Celeb spotting =96 Play CelebMashup and win cool prizes
https://www.celebmashup.com=

We don't need FLARM. What we need is a low cost version of ADS-B that is
affordable for glider pilots. FLARM only addresses other gliders that are
similarly equiped. We need to be visible and have visibility of not just
gliders, but also power traffic.

Mike Schumann

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:uq4Ui.171151$Fc.69305@attbi_s21...
Hi,

FLARM has become extremely popular in several regions of the world
(Europe, and Australia, and ...?), but it has not been "allowed" in the
USA so far. However, there are several gliders flying with FLARM here in
the USA. It is a great technology solution and safety enhancer. But
technical and liability hurdles exist here in the USA. Everyone that I've
talked to that uses FLARM in their glider loves it - especially in
contests or at crowded soaring sites, or along crowded ridges.

I would like to invite you to an informal brainstorming session on "How we
can make FLARM (or something similar) work here in the USA". The meeting
will be held on Wednesday, February 13th, 2008, from 4 to 5 PM in a small
conference room in the convention center that is hosting the SSA
Convention. Details on the meeting location will be available in the
future.

This is not a marketing discussion and I will not be promoting any
products. The goal is to gather technical people together to figure out
how we can use FLARM in the USA.

Topics may include:
- FLARM Europe and FLARM Australia (OzFLARM) use different frequencies (I
think) - will either work here? If so, which one should we use?
- The FCC may (or may not) need to be contacted to figure out what
frequency to use. Or do we want to just start using it without permission
and remain "under the radar". (I prefer that it be approved by the FCC
and FLARM.)
- FLARM in Europe doesn't seem to want to allow its use here. What can we
do to change their mind? Can it be licensed and built here in the USA as
it is in Australia?
- Can we create or use a different technology that would also work for
small aircraft?
- How do the FAA's plans to implement ADSB impact this discussion? In the
short run that looks like an extremely expensive solution for the aircraft
owner.

Since I could potentially benefit from the sale of FLARM devices, I would
prefer not to run the meeting. Does anyone else want to volunteer to run
it - or co-run it? Eric Greenwell and/or Tom Serkowski come to mind as
technology minded glider pilots that may be good for the job.

I am looking forward to the meeting already. I hope you will join us.
There is no need to RSVP. My guess is that the room will be very full.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

But until that technology is available I happy fly with my FLARM
equipped gilder. But the cost of the FLARM is less than the cost of
installation of the Mode S transponder.

And yes, I have a Mode-S transponder in my glider, so that I'm visible
to the TCAS equipped guys.





Mike Schumann schrieb:
We don't need FLARM. What we need is a low cost version of ADS-B that is
affordable for glider pilots. FLARM only addresses other gliders that are
similarly equiped. We need to be visible and have visibility of not just
gliders, but also power traffic.

Mike Schumann

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:uq4Ui.171151$Fc.69305@attbi_s21...
Hi,

FLARM has become extremely popular in several regions of the world
(Europe, and Australia, and ...?), but it has not been "allowed" in the
USA so far. However, there are several gliders flying with FLARM here in
the USA. It is a great technology solution and safety enhancer. But
technical and liability hurdles exist here in the USA. Everyone that I've
talked to that uses FLARM in their glider loves it - especially in
contests or at crowded soaring sites, or along crowded ridges.

I would like to invite you to an informal brainstorming session on "How we
can make FLARM (or something similar) work here in the USA". The meeting
will be held on Wednesday, February 13th, 2008, from 4 to 5 PM in a small
conference room in the convention center that is hosting the SSA
Convention. Details on the meeting location will be available in the
future.

This is not a marketing discussion and I will not be promoting any
products. The goal is to gather technical people together to figure out
how we can use FLARM in the USA.

Topics may include:
- FLARM Europe and FLARM Australia (OzFLARM) use different frequencies (I
think) - will either work here? If so, which one should we use?
- The FCC may (or may not) need to be contacted to figure out what
frequency to use. Or do we want to just start using it without permission
and remain "under the radar". (I prefer that it be approved by the FCC
and FLARM.)
- FLARM in Europe doesn't seem to want to allow its use here. What can we
do to change their mind? Can it be licensed and built here in the USA as
it is in Australia?
- Can we create or use a different technology that would also work for
small aircraft?
- How do the FAA's plans to implement ADSB impact this discussion? In the
short run that looks like an extremely expensive solution for the aircraft
owner.

Since I could potentially benefit from the sale of FLARM devices, I would
prefer not to run the meeting. Does anyone else want to volunteer to run
it - or co-run it? Eric Greenwell and/or Tom Serkowski come to mind as
technology minded glider pilots that may be good for the job.

I am looking forward to the meeting already. I hope you will join us.
There is no need to RSVP. My guess is that the room will be very full.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

hans wrote:
But until that technology is available I happy fly with my FLARM
equipped gilder. But the cost of the FLARM is less than the cost of
installation of the Mode S transponder.

And yes, I have a Mode-S transponder in my glider, so that I'm visible
to the TCAS equipped guys.

The US has provided the option of ADS-B over the low power UAT
(Universal Access Transceiver) physical layer, so a Mode S transponder
is not required...

Marc

"Until that technology is available" is the key issue. Unfortunately, the
glider, balloon, and Ultra Lite community is pretty small an unlikely to get
a commercial company interested in developing a good solution that is cost
effective. This is the type of thing that the SSA should be working on. On
approach would be to partner with some professors at MIT to make this an
open source class project.

Mike Schumann

"hans" wrote in message
...
But until that technology is available I happy fly with my FLARM equipped
gilder. But the cost of the FLARM is less than the cost of installation of
the Mode S transponder.

And yes, I have a Mode-S transponder in my glider, so that I'm visible to
the TCAS equipped guys.





Mike Schumann schrieb:
We don't need FLARM. What we need is a low cost version of ADS-B that is
affordable for glider pilots. FLARM only addresses other gliders that
are similarly equiped. We need to be visible and have visibility of not
just gliders, but also power traffic.

Mike Schumann

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:uq4Ui.171151$Fc.69305@attbi_s21...
Hi,

FLARM has become extremely popular in several regions of the world
(Europe, and Australia, and ...?), but it has not been "allowed" in the
USA so far. However, there are several gliders flying with FLARM here in
the USA. It is a great technology solution and safety enhancer. But
technical and liability hurdles exist here in the USA. Everyone that
I've talked to that uses FLARM in their glider loves it - especially in
contests or at crowded soaring sites, or along crowded ridges.

I would like to invite you to an informal brainstorming session on "How
we can make FLARM (or something similar) work here in the USA". The
meeting will be held on Wednesday, February 13th, 2008, from 4 to 5 PM
in a small conference room in the convention center that is hosting the
SSA Convention. Details on the meeting location will be available in the
future.

This is not a marketing discussion and I will not be promoting any
products. The goal is to gather technical people together to figure out
how we can use FLARM in the USA.

Topics may include:
- FLARM Europe and FLARM Australia (OzFLARM) use different frequencies
(I think) - will either work here? If so, which one should we use?
- The FCC may (or may not) need to be contacted to figure out what
frequency to use. Or do we want to just start using it without
permission and remain "under the radar". (I prefer that it be approved
by the FCC and FLARM.)
- FLARM in Europe doesn't seem to want to allow its use here. What can
we do to change their mind? Can it be licensed and built here in the
USA as it is in Australia?
- Can we create or use a different technology that would also work for
small aircraft?
- How do the FAA's plans to implement ADSB impact this discussion? In
the short run that looks like an extremely expensive solution for the
aircraft owner.

Since I could potentially benefit from the sale of FLARM devices, I
would prefer not to run the meeting. Does anyone else want to volunteer
to run it - or co-run it? Eric Greenwell and/or Tom Serkowski come to
mind as technology minded glider pilots that may be good for the job.

I am looking forward to the meeting already. I hope you will join us.
There is no need to RSVP. My guess is that the room will be very full.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Rory O'Conor wrote:

I certainly would not want to sell an American a product which they may use=
to stop them colliding with each other. What would the US courts do about =
the two gliders that recently collided in Europe - at least one had non-ope=
rational FLARM?

It seems like there is plenty of precedent for selling instruments that
aid in collision avoidance. Zaon Flight, Monroy Aero, and Proxalert sell
transponder detectors for just that purpose, and for $500 to $800.
Foster Flight sells a visually based unit using cameras.

These are all portable, non-TSO'd, non-certified, units, as is FLARM.
So, perhaps the situation isn't as grim as suggested. I suggest
approaching these companies about producing and selling a FLARM unit, as
it would be good fit with their current business. FLARM has sold over
9000 units, so there can be a good market. In Europe, it's not just
gliders that are using them.

Even better would be a low cost ADS-B system, but right now, in the USA,
it's $7000 just for starters in a glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Hi Mike,

I really don't know much about ADS-B, but my impression is that it will be
very expensive for quite a long time.

Let me clarify that I don't really want a solution that is only for gliders.
I want a low cost solution that is so cost effective and simple that every
airplane will want one. I wouldn't even mind if it is mandated that
everyone needs to have one - as long as we can get the cost down to less
than $500 or even $100. The size of the market is huge if we go after all
small aircraft as the target.

Paul Remde

"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
.. .
We don't need FLARM. What we need is a low cost version of ADS-B that is
affordable for glider pilots. FLARM only addresses other gliders that are
similarly equiped. We need to be visible and have visibility of not just
gliders, but also power traffic.

Mike Schumann

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:uq4Ui.171151$Fc.69305@attbi_s21...
Hi,

FLARM has become extremely popular in several regions of the world
(Europe, and Australia, and ...?), but it has not been "allowed" in the
USA so far. However, there are several gliders flying with FLARM here in
the USA. It is a great technology solution and safety enhancer. But
technical and liability hurdles exist here in the USA. Everyone that I've
talked to that uses FLARM in their glider loves it - especially in
contests or at crowded soaring sites, or along crowded ridges.

I would like to invite you to an informal brainstorming session on "How
we can make FLARM (or something similar) work here in the USA". The
meeting will be held on Wednesday, February 13th, 2008, from 4 to 5 PM in
a small conference room in the convention center that is hosting the SSA
Convention. Details on the meeting location will be available in the
future.

This is not a marketing discussion and I will not be promoting any
products. The goal is to gather technical people together to figure out
how we can use FLARM in the USA.

Topics may include:
- FLARM Europe and FLARM Australia (OzFLARM) use different frequencies (I
think) - will either work here? If so, which one should we use?
- The FCC may (or may not) need to be contacted to figure out what
frequency to use. Or do we want to just start using it without
permission and remain "under the radar". (I prefer that it be approved
by the FCC and FLARM.)
- FLARM in Europe doesn't seem to want to allow its use here. What can
we do to change their mind? Can it be licensed and built here in the USA
as it is in Australia?
- Can we create or use a different technology that would also work for
small aircraft?
- How do the FAA's plans to implement ADSB impact this discussion? In
the short run that looks like an extremely expensive solution for the
aircraft owner.

Since I could potentially benefit from the sale of FLARM devices, I would
prefer not to run the meeting. Does anyone else want to volunteer to run
it - or co-run it? Eric Greenwell and/or Tom Serkowski come to mind as
technology minded glider pilots that may be good for the job.

I am looking forward to the meeting already. I hope you will join us.
There is no need to RSVP. My guess is that the room will be very full.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Oct 25, 1:57 pm, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
We don't need FLARM. What we need is a low cost version of ADS-B that is
affordable for glider pilots.

I agree.

But... I doubt ADS-B will have the smarts to provide intelligent
warnings and ignore false alerts due to the close proximity we fly in.

I understand FLARM does a good job of recognizing which gliders in the
gaggle may pose a threat. Correct?

-Tom