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Newbie seeking advice



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 11th 04, 03:21 PM
.
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Default Newbie seeking advice

I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.


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  #2  
Old June 11th 04, 03:36 PM
Jack
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Default

.. wrote:

Do any of you wear rigs?


The wearing of parachutes is common, and in competitions required.


Jack
  #3  
Old June 11th 04, 03:55 PM
Bill Daniels
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"." wrote in message
om...
I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken

with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time

to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out

of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am

a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you

wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.



Most glider pilots wear a simple emergency 'chute which is soaring's
equivalent of the skydiver's reserve. The glider itself is the "main
'chute" since we plan to bring it back. And we do bring them back without
incident 99.9999% of the time.

I once read that only 50% of the bailout attempts from gliders are
successful. This is mainly due to problems with egress from the deep
cockpits. DG has a neat product called NOAH which is a gas inflated bladder
under the seat cushion that lifts the pilot above the cockpit sides so he
can easily roll over the side of the cockpit.

Actual bailouts are very rare and so the statistics are suspect due to the
small sample. However, the main reason seems to be mid-air collisions not
structural failures.

Bill Daniels

  #4  
Old June 11th 04, 04:09 PM
Doug Hoffman
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Default

.. wrote:

I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.


I don't have the statistics, but there are many cases where the pilot's life
has been saved by using the chute. There are also many cases where the
chute, as you suggest, may not help you; such as a low altitude spin,
incapacitating mid-air, etc. As has already been mentioned, wearing a
chute is common and required in SSA sanctioned and other contests.

Regards,

-Doug

  #5  
Old June 11th 04, 05:09 PM
stephanevdv
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Research by the German Akafliegs (academic flying clubs) indicates that
one is unlikely to be able to bail out safely with less than 700 m
altitude. The chute needs only 100 m to deploy, but it is indeed the
egress, under stress and often under higher G forces, that takes time.
They also think it unlikely for anybody to be able to jump under more
than 1.5 positive G. That makes the NOAH system a very good idea.
Unfortunately, we often prefer to invest in performance or electronics
rather than safety devices... (in Germany, NOAH costs approximately 2
500 EUR, + 800 EUR installation, + VAT).

But every year, glider pilots are saved by their chutes - some bailed
out at lower altitudes than indicated above. I don't have a glider, but
I bought a parachute early on, just to be sure it's regularly repacked
and properly treated (not like some club parachutes I know of). If you
fly regularly, it's a good investment! If carefully chosen, it's also
an element of comfort.


--
stephanevdv
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

  #6  
Old June 11th 04, 09:04 PM
Ulrich Neumann
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Default

"." wrote in message . com...
I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.


Welcome to Soaring!

No matter what you intend to fly in, get yourself a chute! These are
typically round, 26' dia. canopies, built for extremely rapid, manual
deployment. There are also rectangular rescue chutes available, but
according to the master rigger who repacks my chute, the average guy
could get into trouble with them since they require skill and
knowledge to handle them. Get something that is called 'Chair-chute'
or 'Thin-Pack'. Keep in mind that - as Bill put it - we intend to
bring the glider back and therefore we typically lie or sit on the
chute for a couple of hours. If you are qualified to repack your own
rig, change your mind-set, too: think "Comfort"! There is nothing more
annoying than getting the chute back repacked only to discover that
there is a lump pushing into your back.
Check out brand names like National, Softie or Strong, they have what
you are looking for.

Uli Neumann
Libelle 'GM'
  #7  
Old June 12th 04, 04:49 PM
Dan D
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Default

seems to me that a chute large enough to carry the pilot and glider would be
the best bet.
forget the bailout. if for whatever reason you fly yourself into a situation
or midair and crash is inevitable, deploy, save yourself as well as the
glider.



"." wrote in message
om...
I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken

with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time

to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out

of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am

a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you

wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.




  #8  
Old June 12th 04, 07:52 PM
Gldcomp
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Posts: n/a
Default


"." wrote in message
om...
I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken

with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time

to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out

of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am

a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you

wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.


Forget all the "I think this", "I think that" very common to
rec.aviation.soaring.
There are all kinds of PHDs in every science here, but unfortunately very
little flying.
Few experienced pilots write here, that's why so many people say things like
"sit on the parachute for a couple of hours".
Competition and cross-country flights in gliders very rarely are less than 6
hours in duration.
Unfortunately, 70% of all glider pilots don't really know what that is,
hence the "couple hour fliers" in rec.aviation.soaring.
Same thing applies for those who "think" there are more bail-outs because of
collision than structural failure...
OF COURSE the rare bail-outs are motivated by collision.
Gliders don't fall appart in flight by themselves like ultralights and other
crazy flying machines.
Gliders are, after all, certified aircraft.

So here is the gist :
Glider pilots almos all over the world are required to wear parachutes
because of the risk of collision with other gliders while thermalling.
That is the only reason we are "required" to wear parachutes.
In the USA parachutes are not "required" except in competition and aerobatic
flight, so, the USA is the exception.

Sure a parachute might also save you in case of structural failure, but the
vast majority of bail-outs were motivated by mid-air collisions.
I only know of structural failures leading to bail-outs in factory
test-flights and in older wooden gliders who had been previously repaired
using unknown techniques, and end-up losing their tails, leading to
bail-outs.

Glider structural failures are extremely rare in real life outside of these
cases.

Structural failures affect airplanes in flight much more than gliders, the
most common reason is to end up inside a cloud without previous IFR
training, lose control and break up in flight.
For airplanes, the other cause for structural failure is aerobatic flight
coupled with metal fatigue.

None of these two factors are very likely in the world of Soaring, hence,
for those scared flyers out there :
Gliders don't break-up in flight unless they hit something.


  #9  
Old June 12th 04, 09:57 PM
f.blair
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Posts: n/a
Default

I beg to differ with this last post. In a contest flight south of
Littlefield, TX in 1988, the tail section of my Open Cirrus broke just in
front of the horizontal stabilizer. At the nose of the glider went down
with no response from the stick, I began to unbuckle. As the glider went
inverted, I rolled out and successfully reached the ground with the help of
my big round parachute. I had encountered some severe turbulence, that in
later discussions with Dick Johnson, he decided must have been some type of
horizontal, rotor type cloud. I was encountering severe updrafts then
severe downdrafts. The whole glider was going up then down, not just the
nose. I was basically just holding on waiting for it to stop. Went through
about 5-6 cycles of up then down, then it got real quiet and the nose
started down and that was when I realized that the control stick did
nothing, so I got out. The boom was broken, but the tail was attached by
cables and a push rod. I watched it land in the field next to me, a smooth,
flat approach. The glider was inverted, but the tail section was upright.
The only thing that was not bent during the landing was the T.E. probe that
was on the front edge of the vertical stabilizer. Gliders can have
structural failures.

It is not a good idea to say that 'something' will never happen.

Still flying and loving it.

Fred Blair
Greater Houston Soaring Association

Original Post:
Forget all the "I think this", "I think that" very common to

rec.aviation.soaring.

Gliders don't fall appart in flight by themselves like ultralights and

other
crazy flying machines.
Gliders are, after all, certified aircraft.

Sure a parachute might also save you in case of structural failure, but

the
vast majority of bail-outs were motivated by mid-air collisions.
I only know of structural failures leading to bail-outs in factory
test-flights and in older wooden gliders who had been previously repaired
using unknown techniques, and end-up losing their tails, leading to
bail-outs.

Glider structural failures are extremely rare in real life outside of

these
cases.

Gliders don't break-up in flight unless they hit something.





  #10  
Old June 13th 04, 12:42 AM
Gldcomp
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Posts: n/a
Default

Like I said, accidents like this are extremely rare.
If we look at the history of your old Open Cirrus, it probably had previous
damage history.
It wouldn't be a surprise if it had previously severed the tailcone in a
groundloop during an outlanding.
I know a few cases similar to yours, and all could be traced back to a
previous damage that was hidden and not well repaired.

Still, a rare event, and like I said, it is NOT the reason we wear a
parachute.
Airplanes break up in flight more often than gliders and power
pilots/passengers are not required to wear a parachute.

If we respect our flight envelopes, gliders don't break up in flight.
They are certified aircraft and are designed to withstand severe forces, as
long as we respect their limits.

"f.blair" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s52...
I beg to differ with this last post. In a contest flight south of
Littlefield, TX in 1988, the tail section of my Open Cirrus broke just in
front of the horizontal stabilizer. At the nose of the glider went down
with no response from the stick, I began to unbuckle. As the glider went
inverted, I rolled out and successfully reached the ground with the help

of
my big round parachute. I had encountered some severe turbulence, that in
later discussions with Dick Johnson, he decided must have been some type

of
horizontal, rotor type cloud. I was encountering severe updrafts then
severe downdrafts. The whole glider was going up then down, not just the
nose. I was basically just holding on waiting for it to stop. Went

through
about 5-6 cycles of up then down, then it got real quiet and the nose
started down and that was when I realized that the control stick did
nothing, so I got out. The boom was broken, but the tail was attached by
cables and a push rod. I watched it land in the field next to me, a

smooth,
flat approach. The glider was inverted, but the tail section was upright.
The only thing that was not bent during the landing was the T.E. probe

that
was on the front edge of the vertical stabilizer. Gliders can have
structural failures.

It is not a good idea to say that 'something' will never happen.

Still flying and loving it.

Fred Blair
Greater Houston Soaring Association

Original Post:
Forget all the "I think this", "I think that" very common to

rec.aviation.soaring.

Gliders don't fall appart in flight by themselves like ultralights and

other
crazy flying machines.
Gliders are, after all, certified aircraft.

Sure a parachute might also save you in case of structural failure, but

the
vast majority of bail-outs were motivated by mid-air collisions.
I only know of structural failures leading to bail-outs in factory
test-flights and in older wooden gliders who had been previously

repaired
using unknown techniques, and end-up losing their tails, leading to
bail-outs.

Glider structural failures are extremely rare in real life outside of

these
cases.

Gliders don't break-up in flight unless they hit something.







 




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