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Folded wing tip question



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 28th 05, 12:42 AM
John Carrier
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To my knowledge, the A-7 has never successfully completed a wings-folded
flight. Big problem is that the ailerons on the outer (folded) wing panels
so only the spoilers on the upper surface of the wing and rudder would be
available for roll control. The airplane is also not loaded in the T/W
department, so the takeoff roll would be excruciatingly long.

An F-8 did complete a wings-folded hop, out of Sigonella IIRC. The Phantom
should certainly have had the capability and afterburner wouldn't have been
the limiting factor. I know of no documented cases of the F-4 doing so.
Hopefully, a second brain in the cockpit might catch the oversight prior to
T/O.

R / John

"Yofuri" wrote in message
...
a425couple wrote:
I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?

I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.

Making the rounds circa 1972 was that a F4 with folding wings
(story was MC, possib. Navy) taxied out (story was at Kadena)
got clearance to take off, hit afterburners and got enough thrust
to take off. Sheesh - wingtips were still folded up. Could only
stay in air with afterburner thrust, had to eject, dumped $4 mil.
plane in East China Sea. True or not? Ever true anywhere
or anytime to anyone??

I have seen (recently sited on s.m.n.) what appears to be a
picture of a plane (A-7?) flying with tips folded, so ???



I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS Miramar
in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind and one
panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to a toddler
in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the patio door.

Rick



  #12  
Old April 28th 05, 12:51 AM
Dave in San Diego
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"a425couple" wrote in
:


"Yofuri" wrote in message
a425couple wrote:
"Yofuri" wrote in message
I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn
downwind and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial
glass cuts to a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when
wreckage shattered the patio door. Rick
Thank you very much. Think that is the one pictured in the link?

Could you repeat the link? I missed it. Rick


Sure A good poster over on s.m.n. gave me this link, "
http://www.vmf235.com/f8_wingsfolded.jpg not F-4 but if I read the
photo credit right is Marine. You have to careful with Google refs
---" Anyone know if this photo is real, and what outcome was?


That's not an A-7; it's an F-8. Sez so right in the link. Biggest
differences - F-8 has a variable incidence wing and a pointier nose.

Dave in San Diego
  #13  
Old April 28th 05, 03:15 AM
Greasy Rider© @invalid.com
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On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:02:16 -0700, "a425couple"
postulated :

I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?

I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.



My friend Kit from the 50s provided some more remembrances regarding
folding wing take offs:

----------------------start--------------------

I recall VF-102 from our very own Air Wing 8, on board
FORRESTAL, during one of the many Med Cruises I endured,
taking off from Naples AERFER, and landing safely back at
the air strip in an F-8 Crusader. It did break one of the uplocks on
the wing, but they fixed it, and it made it back to the ship in a
couple of days.

VF-84 also had one out of Rota flying F-8s..

KIT

---------------------end---------------------

So it appears that there were more than one F-8 Crusaders attempting
flight with folded wings.
  #14  
Old April 28th 05, 04:04 AM
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I read the USAF Safety TWX on an incident where a 57th FIS F4E ;aunched
out of Rekyavik with his wings unlocked. When the bird rotated the tips
went vertical and with the sudden shift of the now modified aero center
the bird nosed up steeply. The RIO made the appropriate comment while
the AC rolled the plane inverted to get the nose back down. At the
horizon he rolled right side up and still in burner found that at 300
the tips would lie flat. (Note that USAF F4Es do not have cockpit-
folding controls, - it's all done outside, on the ground, of course.)
They punched the tanks and dumped fuel and determined from a little
test flying that they could make an approach. I forgot the exact speed
but it was doable.
So they came in flat and fast, planted the bird on the runway, slowed
enough to pop the chute and stopped okay. The WingCo had the usual talk
with the crew. He posited that the attaboy canceled the aw **** and the
crew agreed.
(A little careless maybe but not stupid). The mishap occurred because
the bird had just been painted sea grey over the usual slime and
sewage; the wings being unlocked, the telltale red pins also became
grey, and no one noticed they were sticking up when the bird was towed
from the hanagr to teh flightline - or during preflight . . . This
happened sometime around 1972-1973 because I was stationed at Bitburg
AB Germany when I read the TWX report.
Walt BJ ret ftr plt

  #15  
Old April 28th 05, 04:14 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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wrote in message
oups.com...

I read the USAF Safety TWX on an incident where a 57th FIS F4E ;aunched
out of Rekyavik with his wings unlocked. When the bird rotated the tips
went vertical and with the sudden shift of the now modified aero center
the bird nosed up steeply. The RIO made the appropriate comment while
the AC rolled the plane inverted to get the nose back down. At the
horizon he rolled right side up and still in burner found that at 300
the tips would lie flat. (Note that USAF F4Es do not have cockpit-
folding controls, - it's all done outside, on the ground, of course.)


As it was on all USAF F-4s. The F-4E dispensed with hydraulic wing folding.
The hydraulic wing folding controls on earlier USAF F-4s were located on a
panel in the left main wheel well inboard.


  #16  
Old April 28th 05, 06:15 AM
Yofuri
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a425couple wrote:
"Yofuri" wrote in message

a425couple wrote:

"Yofuri" wrote in message

I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind
and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to
a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the
patio door. Rick

Thank you very much. Think that is the one pictured in the link?


Could you repeat the link? I missed it. Rick



Sure A good poster over on s.m.n. gave me this link, "
http://www.vmf235.com/f8_wingsfolded.jpg not F-4 but if I read the
photo credit right is Marine. You have to careful with Google refs ---"
Anyone know if this photo is real, and what outcome was?


That's a Marine F8. The one I knew of was a VA-25 A7E.

Rick
  #17  
Old April 28th 05, 10:11 AM
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I have seen photos of both the 57FIS F-4E and an F-4N flying with their
wings folded. Both were said to have landed safely. FWIW, the wingfold
lock was actuated manually on the F-4E from a point under the fold hinge
using I believe a 1/2 inch drive speed handle or ratchet, no socket, so once
the 57 FIS jet was airborne there would be no way to lock the outer wing
panels down.
Scott Wilson
Phormer F-4C and F-4E Comm-Nav Avionics Specialist
  #18  
Old April 28th 05, 12:05 PM
Greasy Rider© @invalid.com
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On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:02:16 -0700, "a425couple"
postulated :

I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?

I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.


Another Naval Aviator from the 80's time frame responded to my e-mail
question last evening.....

--------------------------start-------------------

....S-3A VIKING OFF THE NIMITZ IN THE MED IN 1982 HAD WINGS START
FOLDING ON TAKEOFF ! KILLED 3, ONE LIVED.

Scott

-------------------------end--------------------
  #19  
Old April 28th 05, 02:25 PM
Phormer Phantom Phlyer
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Probably be able to reach down, lower and lock them while airborne.
Pilot and RIO pretty stupid in public tho if this is true.

What was the RIO doin' when the pilot wiped out the cockpit last time?

  #20  
Old April 28th 05, 02:29 PM
Phormer Phantom Phlyer
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Remember the squadron for the F-4N?

Not many squadrons had this bird. VF-101 in KW, VF-154, VF-21 onboard
Coral-Maru..

 




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