If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#71
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
I have visited your site (Dunstable) quite recently and your
winch launches look pretty much the same as what we do at Lasham these days, presumably because you have taken on board the recommendations of the BGA Safe Winch Launching Initiative. This hasn't always been the case, as your launches used to make us gasp when we visited. The explanation given was that you have a small site and had to get to get the most height out of your launches. BTW I don't believe a reasonably gentle and controlled rotation costs any launch height. You might get a momentary overspeed, which is not critical low down, but this then gets converted back into height as you pull back to control the speed once established in the full climb. Derek Copeland At 11:20 11 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote: At Dunstable we operate a 6 drum Van Gelda winch and have done so for some 25+ years. It has NEVER been taught to start the launch with the stick on the back stop, in fact quite the reverse then followed by gentle rotation into a steeper climb. Given the operational restrictions of the site, we do climb "steeper" than at other sites, however certainly NOT before we have a safe height and safe airspeed to do so. At 10:20 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote: That's what we told to do when we first acquired our Tost winches at Lasham, in order to contain the speed and get the highest possible launches. Prior to that we autotowed, where you had to initially climb quite gently as the acceleration was slow and it took time to build up a safe speed. After a few cases when K8's and similar lightweight gliders went into near vertical climbs before breaking the weak link, we backed off the instruction. Fortunately we didn't kill any of the pilots. Dunstable went on launching quite steeply for some years until they had a fatality caused by a flick spin. Certainly when we visited that club we always used to hold our breath as we watched them winch launching gliders. Some German pilots seem to pull up more steeply than we now do, and I note from the accident statistics published earlier in this thread that they have had a couple of flick spin fatalities in recent times. Derek Copeland At 09:29 11 October 2013, John Galloway wrote: At 06:31 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote: One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch launching safety record was that we copied German methods. In particular, when we first had powerful German Tost winches we were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the speed. This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents, so we realised that this was not a good idea, as have the Germans. We now start with the stick forward of centre and control the rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for several years. Del, when you say "we copied the German methods etc" - who is the "we"? It was 1969 that I first trained and soloed on the winch in the UK and I have never personally encountered instruction to start a winch launch with the stick hard back to contain the speed. John Galloway |
#72
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the release
during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the glider pilot if a wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to become a debate about winch launch techniques. The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug pilot! Over the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have been killed by glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too quickly. This results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall, and since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider raises the tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug upset is probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience to the glider pilot. Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time period - probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider pilot time to search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug pilot's life. On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the release, or holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement would otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are doing you a service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the tow goes wrong. One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough and that the release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill a tug pilot. |
#73
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
Totally agree George. However the tug pilot should have a
release at his end which he is perfectly entitled to pull if things are getting out of hand. Derek Copeland At 13:17 11 October 2013, George Knight wrote: This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the release during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the glider pilot if a wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to become a debate about winch launch techniques. The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug pilot! Over the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have been killed by glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too quickly. This results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall, and since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider raises the tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug upset is probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience to the glider pilot. Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time period - probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider pilot time to search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug pilot's life. On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the release, or holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement would otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are doing you a service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the tow goes wrong. One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough and that the release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill a tug pilot. |
#74
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
Agreed, but depending on the tug being flown this may be more difficult
than for the glider pilot. The tug pilot will normally have one hand on the stick and the other on the throttle/gas so at a moment when he is probably being subjected to a violent downward 'bunt' he needs to let go of something (the throttle), look for the release, grab it and operate it. On some tugs the release is near the throttle, on others it is in the roof, it may be on his left when he has his right hand on the throttle. Evidence suggests that tug pilots are not able to react fast enough. The onus must be on the glider pilot not to put the tug and its pilot at risk. If the glider pilot has his hand touching the release: 1. He/she can pull it faster than the tug. 2. The glider pilot is in a better position to see/realise that the tow is going wrong. Unless the tug pilot is looking in the mirror at the right moment, by the time he feels the speed going and the nose dropping it is probably too late if he is much below 1,000'. At 14:11 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote: Totally agree George. However the tug pilot should have a release at his end which he is perfectly entitled to pull if things are getting out of hand. Derek Copeland At 13:17 11 October 2013, George Knight wrote: This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the release during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the glider pilot if a wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to become a debate about winch launch techniques. The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug pilot! Over the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have been killed by glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too quickly. This results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall, and since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider raises the tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug upset is probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience to the glider pilot. Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time period - probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider pilot time to search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug pilot's life. On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the release, or holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement would otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are doing you a service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the tow goes wrong. One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough and that the release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill a tug pilot. |
#75
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
I don't have a 3rd hand to hold the tow release. Practice tells me when I have aileron control. Flying my '20, my left hand is just as busy as the right. I agree with B4's description. I don't look to see what the ASI is saying. Sliding from flap 2 to flap 4 and the plane lifts off by itself.
On Friday, October 4, 2013 1:37:45 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote: In an ASW19, 20 or 27 it is common practice (even mentioned in the POH) to start an aero tow with partially deployed spoilers to help keep ailerons effective at low speeds. At around 30 knots put in spoilers and move flaps from 2 to 4. Works great. Sounds OK in theory. An engineer probably came up with the POH entry, but.... Who has time to look at the airspeed, look at the runway, tow plane and keep it all straight plus close spoilers and change flaps at a certain speed? With our clubs 260 HP towplane it all happens fast! Ailerons seem to work fine in about 3 seconds. |
#76
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
On Friday, October 11, 2013 7:17:42 AM UTC-6, George Knight wrote:
This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the release during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the glider pilot if a wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to become a debate about winch launch techniques. The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug pilot! Over the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have been killed by glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too quickly. This results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall, and since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider raises the tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug upset is probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience to the glider pilot. Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time period - probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider pilot time to search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug pilot's life. On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the release, or holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement would otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are doing you a service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the tow goes wrong. One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough and that the release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill a tug pilot. Hi George, Thanks for your comments. You are correct that we do need to remember the amazing guys and gals up in the tow planes and remember the risks they take to tow us up for our own fun. That said, I would like to assert that there have been many more accidents and bent ships from gliders accidentally releasing at low altitudes because their hand was on the release than tow planes being pulled into the ground because a hand was NOT on the release. Bruno - B4 |
#77
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
|
#78
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
The main thing is to ensure that the glider pilot's arm is not at full
stretch when holding the release knob, so there is a bit of slack in the system and he is not likely to pull it accidentally due to turbulence etc. Perhaps an extension cord should be attached if the release knob is difficult to get at or too far away. Derek Copeland Hi George, Thanks for your comments. You are correct that we do need to remember the a= mazing guys and gals up in the tow planes and remember the risks they take = to tow us up for our own fun. That said, I would like to assert that there = have been many more accidents and bent ships from gliders accidentally rele= asing at low altitudes because their hand was on the release than tow plane= s being pulled into the ground because a hand was NOT on the release.=20 Bruno - B4 |
#79
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
I went solo in a glider in 1962 and for about 5 years after that my main
duties were that of winch driver undertaking about 50 launches per weekend.In 50 years of gliding I have held or hold a CFS credited A2 Star instructor category, a BGA Full Cat and Assistant Cat.I have been appointed as the OC of awinch launched Air Cadet Gliding School, and CFI. I am Currently DCFI at my club. I have over 10,000 launches the majority of which are by winch. I have had no accident. I have released a glider at the start of a winch launch on about 5 occasions after we started to move and before we were airborne. I all cases my hand was on the release and was because a wing was dropping. I all cases I was the instructor in the back seat and I have no idea whether or not the wing drop would have been recovered, I did not think it was prudent to wait to find out. I only mention all this so that no one will be in any doubt that my next statement is made with some knowledge gained by experience. I have flown at many clubs and AC Gliding Schools and have observed operations at many more. I can say that the winch operation at Portmoak, The Scottish Gliding Centre is as efficient and safe as any I have seen, and has always been so since I started visiting many years ago. Even the launch round the pole was done in such a way as to be completely safe. If anyone should know the primary cause of the cartwheel accidents I, and many others would be glad to hear it. The wing drop is a symptom and the actions of the wing runner do not appear to have any contribution to the cause. In my opinion the most likely factors are aft fitted CoG hooks, rapid acceleration, crosswind, too strong weak links, cable misalignment and the pilot holding the aileron/rudder controls in any position other than neutral or mishandling. I suspect that if only one factor is present the result is not too serious but the presence of 2 or more factors is likely to result in disaster but it does appear that no one really knows. In those circumstances a very early release is the only action that will mitigate the result and it is therefore sensible to be in a position to release as quickly as possible. The events happen very quickly and even the milliseconds or longer taken searching for the release can be too long. The time saved by having your hand on the release can literally mean the difference between life or death. As an aside on of the reasons for removing the safe blind handle from ejector seats was to do away with the time it took for a pilot to decide which handle to use. There is a time penalty in deciding all actions, if you are holding the release at least one decision/action is removed from the chain. What concerns me is that some uninformed people have failed to grasp the importance of holding the release (pun intended) and even worse have argued against it. The danger is that people with less experience may not adopt the procedure because of these irresponsible arguments and statements. I flew an ASW 17 for several years and I did hold the flap lever on aerotowing but I always had a paracord loop around my wrist and the release knob. The use of air-brake to increase aileron effectiveness is unnecessary on a flapped sailplane where negative flap, which has the same effect, is available so the paracord loop would work for airbrakes as well. Bottom line, holding the release from the moment the cable is attached, whatever your method of tow is a sensible and safe practice. An inadvertent release on the ground run is only likely to cause embarrassment and some pushing and shoving, but at least you will be alive to do it. |
#80
|
|||
|
|||
Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!
On Friday, October 11, 2013 4:03:27 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
If anyone should know the primary cause of the cartwheel accidents I, and many others would be glad to hear it. The wing drop is a symptom and the actions of the wing runner do not appear to have any contribution to the cause. It looks like aileron stall to me. I cannot have been the first to form this opinion, so I'm certain I'll now be told this cannot be the case for some very good reason. Evan Ludeman / T8 |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Number of aero tows in 2011 | Bill D | Soaring | 35 | November 21st 12 03:39 AM |
Looking for a Yellow Tow Release Handle | Randy Teel | Soaring | 3 | August 7th 12 10:36 PM |
Schweizer Tow Release Handle/Bracket | Jim Newton | Soaring | 2 | May 14th 10 05:17 PM |
Schweizer Tow Release Handle/Bracket | Jim Newton | Soaring | 0 | April 22nd 05 07:21 PM |
CG hook on aero tows?? | Ted Wagner | Soaring | 130 | January 12th 04 11:04 PM |