Cloud Flying - Experimental

On Feb 7, 11:11 am, Soarin Again
wrote:
something that the FAA specifically states as illegal?

Got a specific FAR to back up that statement?
Bill Daniels

Bill

Could you enlighten us as to what equipment we would
need to have installed in our gliders in order to be
able
to legally fly IFR in the U.S.?

That would be listed in FAR 91.205(d)

A link here to the full reg, http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-
idx?
c=ecfr&sid=4ff466b3af1b868157e0b18f51d27e42&rgn=di v8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.3&idno=14


Basically, all of the instruments for VFR flight (airspeed, altimeter,
compass), plus:

(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment
appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.

(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following
aircraft:

(4) Slip-skid indicator.

(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.

(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second
pointer or digital presentation.

(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.

(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).

(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).

Of course, now I see that only applies to "powered" aircraft.

Toad

On Feb 6, 4:54 pm, Jack wrote:
Steve Hill wrote:

[....]

I'm sure Bill's right. If you have all the approved instruments, and
certificates and the gumption to pull it off...I'm sure you can. Heck they
do in England.

[....]

Nothing wrong with your pointing out the bad parts, Steve. Ain't nothin'
bogus about safety. It should be understood that there are good parts,
too, when it's legal to soar in cloud.

There is an expressed concern throughout the community about mid-airs,
but it doesn't sound like there is any great rush to install
transponders. The internal dissembling required for an owner to avoid
installing a transponder in his ship season after season is at least as
disturbing as any newby's assumption that he can get away with flying in
cloud.

The use of TPAS and the like is a partial step in the direction of
enhanced traffic avoidance and so cheap that these units ought to be
flying off the shelves. http://www.zaonflight.com/

Cumulus http://www.soarmn.com/cumulus/zaon.htm and
Wings and Wheels http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
offer reasonable deals on this type of equipment, and so much else.

Jack

Experimental COA certificate with the Operating limits letter is what
you are allowed to do with your experimental glider.

Your flight test program that you submitted, documented and performed
successfully forms the flight capabilities of your
COA.

In other words...if your flight test program to get the COA done did
not include spins etc...and hence not in your operating limits letter
then you are not legal to perform those manuevers.

Flying straight and level in a cloud without an artificial horizon
will only last for about 30 seconds at most since the turbulence, G'
loads etc will soon cause you
to make incorrect control inputs and ussually results in overspeeding
and overstressing the structure before you exit the cloud.

If you have the sense to do it quickly and deliberately you can slowly
put the stick back and then leave it in the lower right corner with
full right rudder and get yourself into a stable spin which by its
very nature will not descend to quickly nor overstress the aircraft,
although you might get queezy after 10+ turns .......once clear of
cloud you can do a normal spin recovery without having overstressed
anything and live to learn never to do that sort of thing again
without the proper instruments.

You will also find out if your C of G was in the proper range if you
are unable to recover from the spin.
All airworthy soundly designed gliders should be capable of a
predictable, repeatable spin recovery when in the proper C of G
range.

If not then dont fly it, because its not airworthy and will kill you
the first time you mess up!!!

Ray

The biggest danger in cloud flying is not spinning
or mid-air collisions, it's getting into a spiral dive.
Without reference to blind flying instruments, it is
very easy to get into an ever steepening turn which
will eventually cause the glider to overspeed and to
be over stressed by excessive g. As long as the turn
is reasonably accurate, the apparent direction of gravity
will always be straight down the vertical axis of the
glider, so your senses will tell you that you are flying
straight when you are turning quite steeply. If you
do actually straighten up from a turn, you will then
get a strong sensation that you are now turning in
the opposite direction.

Some years ago a member of the Lasham based Imperial
College Gliding Club got a Skylark into a spiral dive
while cloud climbing. He ended up pulling so much g
that he blacked out and then collapsed through the
seat pan, which is stressed to 9g for a 110 kg person,
and then out through the bottom of the glider. He came
round to find himself falling through the cloud without
a glider, pulled the ripcord on his parachute and survived
relatively unharmed. When the wreckage of the glider
was found, the canopy was still fastened and the seat
belts were still done up, so he definitely hadn't bailed
out!

In the UK the only operational requirements for cloud
flying are that all occupants of the glider must wear
a serviceable parachute and be trained in its use (which
saved the life of the above pilot). However, in my
opinion, you would be mad to enter cloud without at
least a turn and slip indicator, plus serviceable basic
instruments, and some training in blind flying techniques.

If you get into a spin, the best thing to do is to
hold the glider in the spin by applying full up elevator
and into spin rudder until you drop out of the bottom
of the cloud and then to recover. It is possible to
recover from spins by reference to the instruments
alone, and I have done this under the hood with a safety
pilot, but it is not easy and the worst bit is getting
the glider back under control once the spin has stopped.

Derek Copeland


At 22:06 07 February 2007, Jb92563 wrote:
Experimental COA certificate with the Operating limits
letter is what
you are allowed to do with your experimental glider.

Your flight test program that you submitted, documented
and performed
successfully forms the flight capabilities of your
COA.

In other words...if your flight test program to get
the COA done did
not include spins etc...and hence not in your operating
limits letter
then you are not legal to perform those manuevers.

Flying straight and level in a cloud without an artificial
horizon
will only last for about 30 seconds at most since the
turbulence, G'
loads etc will soon cause you
to make incorrect control inputs and ussually results
in overspeeding
and overstressing the structure before you exit the
cloud.

If you have the sense to do it quickly and deliberately
you can slowly
put the stick back and then leave it in the lower right
corner with
full right rudder and get yourself into a stable spin
which by its
very nature will not descend to quickly nor overstress
the aircraft,
although you might get queezy after 10+ turns .......once
clear of
cloud you can do a normal spin recovery without having
overstressed
anything and live to learn never to do that sort of
thing again
without the proper instruments.

You will also find out if your C of G was in the proper
range if you
are unable to recover from the spin.
All airworthy soundly designed gliders should be capable
of a
predictable, repeatable spin recovery when in the
proper C of G
range.

If not then dont fly it, because its not airworthy
and will kill you
the first time you mess up!!!

Ray

Flying straight and level in a cloud without an artificial horizon
will only last for about 30 seconds at most since the turbulence, G'
loads etc will soon cause you
to make incorrect control inputs and ussually results in overspeeding
and overstressing the structure before you exit the cloud.

Funny, people seem to survive in clouds just fine using only needle,
speedle, and airball. Do some research, please. I will agree that an
attitude indicator make life a lot easier and safer. But then so does
a great big WFOV HUD and an autopilot...you use what you got.

If you have the sense to do it quickly and deliberately you can
slowly
put the stick back and then leave it in the lower right corner with
full right rudder and get yourself into a stable spin which by its
very nature will not descend to quickly nor overstress the aircraft,
although you might get queezy after 10+ turns .......once clear of
cloud you can do a normal spin recovery without having overstressed
anything and live to learn never to do that sort of thing again
without the proper instruments.

Only in some gliders - older ones mainly. Try that in some of the
modern racing ships (elevator limited - such as my LS6) and you will
definitely come out at VNE+ in a graveyard spiral! But if you are in
your 1-26 - go ahead and spin down. (But look up the geezer in Florida
who pulled a wing off his 1-26 that way. Survived, though).

By the way, we are talking about legal cloud flying with the proper
ratings, and equipment.


You will also find out if your C of G was in the proper range if you
are unable to recover from the spin.
All airworthy soundly designed gliders should be capable of a
predictable, repeatable spin recovery when in the proper C of G
range.

Most modern gliders can't be put in a stable spin - they are elevator
limited. At best, you get a quarter turn before it turns into a
spiral - bad news IMC!

If not then dont fly it, because its not airworthy and will kill you
the first time you mess up!!!

Applies to all aircraft. Any bozo in a C-152 can kill himself in a
cloud. Why do you assume gliders are any different?

Kirk
66

Dan G wrote:
In Britain - where cloud flying is common - you radio your position
and intentions on a set frequency before entering a cloud. (You're
also required to be wearing a parachute.)

As an aside older British gliders were required to have speed-limiting
airbrakes, so if it all went pear-shaped you could open the airbrakes
and eventually fall out the bottom of the cloud at a reasonable
airspeed. My understanding is that more modern gliders have airbrakes
that only limit the speed in a 45deg dive.


Dan

YMMV - Many, including my Cirrus, are 45 degrees.

I agree with Bill: the Instrument Ticket IS the hardest: the ATP is
just an instrument ride with tighter tolerances, made possible (and
largely easy) through experience and training -- yes, I have flown
both checkrides (successfully). And those who have not done the
training (for IFR and/or ATP) have a signifcantly different
perspective than those who have. Thanks go out to Bill for pointing
the "failure to communicate." I wonder where modern aviation would be
if Jimmy Doolittle had listened to those that claim "instrument flight
is a crime against nature" and he had never accomplished that
monumental first ever "blind" flight (from takeoff through a SAFE
landing). I suppose it would be a "bigger sky," with room enough for
us to fly in clouds, with "fate being the hunter!"

On Feb 6, 8:03 am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
It's hard to have an informed discussion between instrument rated pilots and
non-instrument rated pilots since the difference in training is huge.
Getting an instrument rating is probably the hardest rating to get. I've
been thold that the ATP is easier.

While I got my IFR ticket before I added a very rewarding and
educational Commercial Glider rating, I suspect my next observation
would apply to my glider flying as well as other aspects. I had been
flying (power) aerobatics for years before succumbing to CFI pressure
to add the IFR ticket. Seeing as IFR flying usually involves very
small control pressures and displacements -- as opposed to full
deflection action for aerobatics -- I chose to "pause" my aerobatics
during the final stages of my Instrument training. After a pleasant
Instrument check ride, I couldn't wait to go do aerobatics after the
self imposed sabbatical. In that very next acro flight, I noticed
that my acro maneuvers became significantly more PRECISE as a result
of my IFR training. I had never anticipated such a fringe benefit!!!
I fully believe this would be true for a PPG getting a PPA followed by
an IFR ticket -- the glider flying will benefit from the IFR skills
gained.

Actually, I know pilots who feel very uncomfortable flying visually.
(Instrument pilot sits in glider and asks, "Where the hell is the attitude
indicator?"

These type of people (I will not refer to them as pilots) scare me
more than Inspector Sphincter from the FAA: flying head down on a
CAVU day begging to be party to a midair. Those who are uncomfortable
flying without a full IFR panel will be sorry the day the first of the
six instrumtents fails, or worse, provides misleading information!
I've had both happen to me. Part of the Instrument training is to
recognize failures, cross reference other instruments and adapt to fly
partial panel. Oh, I might add a slight confession: I have been
there and took on some self-imposed goals to "cure the
disease," (e.g., get a glider rating!!!). Now I like to use that
neglected instrument (the "window"), even when it's pure white...

I've also had a controller vector me straight at a mountain, below the
MEA/MOCA (for those without IFR tickets, that means the controller
wanted to point me direclty at cumulo granitus). I think Steve Hill
grossly misrepresented the duties of a competent IFR pilot on an IFR
flight...he needs to remember the ONLY similarity between pilots and
controllers: if the pilot screws up, the pilot dies -- if the
controller screws up, the pilot dies. In defference to Steve's
opinion of this "odd" topic, I think it's great that it gets discussed
and reasonable, safe procedures get established to open the skies for
safe flying. Buckle up in your Aerostar, look out that thing called a
window when it's VMC and share the sky...even the cloudy parts. Oh,
BTW, yes, I have flown Aerostars, too. Move over Big Boy, there's a
1-26 coming through...

The point is that flight under IMC can be done safely by a well trained
pilot. It's not the equipment, it's the pilot that makes the difference.
Almost all accidents under IMC are pilots flying perfectly good aircraft
into the ground. They even have a name for it - CFIT (Controled Flight Into
Terrain) Aircraft and the installed instruments have little to do with it
as long as the pilot knows how to use what he has - and knows his own
limitations.


I have a slight disagreement: it is the COMBINATION of pilot AND
equipment AND TRAINING! Part of knowing how to use it is "computing"
the fact that today, I or the airplane or the weather are not
compatible! Some days, a slight forcast of icing switches me
immediately to "I'll drive" mode! And my previous note about dealing
with failures (spoilers, hooks, engines, GPS's, etc., etc., etc.) is
the lions' share of ALL aviation training, isn't it?

I'm looking forward to Shawn's presentation at the convention.

I'm quite sorry other committments will prevent me from seeing it, and
I hope it becomes available though other channels. While I haven't
got the equipment, or the (glider) IFR experience, but perhaps one day
I will (safely) enjoy such extended flights, provided that the triad
is ready: me, aircraft and weather!

-Pete
#309

Bill Daniels schrieb:

Getting an instrument rating is probably the hardest rating to get.

It's hard because of the navigation and approach procedures. None of
them is needed for simple cloud flying. Just flying by reference to
gyros is pretty simple.

Bruce Greef schrieb:

As an aside older British gliders were required to have speed-limiting
airbrakes, so if it all went pear-shaped you could open the airbrakes
and eventually fall out the bottom of the cloud at a reasonable
airspeed. My understanding is that more modern gliders have airbrakes
that only limit the speed in a 45deg dive.

YMMV - Many, including my Cirrus, are 45 degrees.

JAR-22 requires at least 45 degrees for a glider to be certified for
cloud flying. (This is one of the reasons why the Duo is not.)