"First Ospreys Land In Iraq; One Arrives After 2 Setbacks"

Tiger wrote:

The Media bashing of the V-22 is getting old. The B-58 had more
accidents than the v-22 ever had. Other programs have had troubled
histories: F4U, F7U, F-104, AV-8,etc...

So, for that matter, did the CH-46 that the V-22 is replacing.
The CH-46's bigger brother, the CH-47 was a killer in its early days.
CH-47As would just "stop flying" usually with fatal results.
(Never heard if that habit ever actually stopped, either)
--
Pete Stickney
Without data, all you have is an opinion

wrote:

On Oct 17, 3:53 pm, Tiger wrote:
The Media bashing of the V-22 is getting old. The B-58 had more
accidents than the v-22 ever had. Other programs have had troubled
histories: F4U, F7U, F-104, AV-8,etc...


How many of those has to transition from forward flight to hover in a
combat zone?

Every helicopter ever made. They don't just hover while the Earth rotates
below them, after all.
All rotorcraft are vulnerable in the transition between hovering and forward
flight.
--
Pete Stickney
Without data, all you have is an opinion

On Oct 17, 6:06 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
On Oct 17, 4:14?pm, wrote:

On Oct 17, 3:53 pm, Tiger wrote:

The Media bashing of the V-22 is getting old. The B-58 had more
accidents than the v-22 ever had. Other programs have had troubled
histories: F4U, F7U, F-104, AV-8,etc...

How many of those has to transition from forward flight to hover in a
combat zone?

How many of those will lose 24-26 men instead of 1-10 if shot down?
None in US aviation inventory history. And, don't say heavy transports
have either b/c the V-22 is not one of them and is completely
vunerable in transitional flight as compared to evasive maneuvering,
ditching, and a controlled crashed landing in the big transports.

In the Osprey, you are a sitting duck in transition- take-off or
landing.

Rob



They'll quickly learn that it can only be used in secure areas. Moving
small numbers of men and/or ammo between rear area bases.

A helo losing power can auto-rotate and possibly most or all aboard
will live.
One engine gone from the Osprey during transition and it's game over.

On Oct 19, 3:01 am, wrote:

They'll quickly learn that it can only be used in secure areas. Moving
small numbers of men and/or ammo between rear area bases.

A helo losing power can auto-rotate and possibly most or all aboard
will live.
One engine gone from the Osprey during transition and it's game over.

One engine gone in transition has been tested, and passed during
flight test.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...

BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 19, 3:01 am, wrote:
They'll quickly learn that it can only be used in secure areas.
Moving small numbers of men and/or ammo between rear area bases.

A helo losing power can auto-rotate and possibly most or all aboard
will live. One engine gone from the Osprey during transition and
it's game over.

One engine gone in transition has been tested, and passed during
flight test.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb. It's just fate whether
you live in Kansas or Tibet...


When did they test a fully loaded V-22 with an engine out?

"V-22s can supposedly make vertical takeoffs or landings with one engine
inoperable, yet during 17 years of testing, this maneuver has never been
attempted."

http://www.cdi.org/PDFs/Gaillard%20V%2022%20Final.pdf

Vince

On Oct 19, 8:42 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 19, 3:01 am, wrote:
They'll quickly learn that it can only be used in secure areas.
Moving small numbers of men and/or ammo between rear area bases.

A helo losing power can auto-rotate and possibly most or all aboard
will live. One engine gone from the Osprey during transition and
it's game over.

One engine gone in transition has been tested, and passed during
flight test.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb. It's just fate whether
you live in Kansas or Tibet...

When did they test a fully loaded V-22 with an engine out?

No one, prior to you, said anything about "fully loaded." That was
not in the discussion.
OEI was tested in 1999, as you have acknowledged previously.

"Vince firelaw@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
: Henry J Cobb hcobb@xxxxxx wrote:
:
: :before rolling off the side of the ship. This is why the program
has no
: lans to test a one engine out vertical landing aboard ship.
:
: And yet it was tested in 1999. By the way, a V-22 with one engine
out
: does NOT autorotate to land. One engine power both rotors and they
: just set it down.
:
:in general yes but if it fully loaded its marginal for vertical
flight.

That's why it's called an 'emergency condition', Vinnie.

Most planes are 'marginal' when fully loaded if you blow an engine.

--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls
to
live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden"

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...

BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 19, 8:42 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 19, 3:01 am, wrote:
They'll quickly learn that it can only be used in secure areas.
Moving small numbers of men and/or ammo between rear area bases.
A helo losing power can auto-rotate and possibly most or all aboard
will live. One engine gone from the Osprey during transition and
it's game over.
One engine gone in transition has been tested, and passed during
flight test.
BB
I guess everybody has some mountain to climb. It's just fate whether
you live in Kansas or Tibet...
When did they test a fully loaded V-22 with an engine out?

No one, prior to you, said anything about "fully loaded." That was
not in the discussion.
OEI was tested in 1999, as you have acknowledged previously.

The test was a "simulated" oei

Test pilots also conducted simulated OEI (one engine inoperative)
vertical landings, vertical takeoffs, and short takeoffs.
http://www.navyleague.org/seapower/m...s_sea_legs.htm


The sea trials test plan requires the V-22 to do practice landings on
five of the ship's 10 helicopter spots to see how it handles in a
variety of conditions, such as strong winds or rough seas. In addition,
the pilots will practice a simulated OEI (one engine inoperative) which
is a no hover vertical landing to the aft end of the ship, vertical
take-offs from a helo spot, and shipboard short take-offs.

They simulate it by running both engines at reduced power


"Although a V-22 program spokesperson told me that its testing regimen
has included a number of one engine inoperative (OEI) transitions in
level flight and in steeply angled descents to roll-on landings (and
equivalent rolling short takeoffs),16144 it is disturbing to note that
during its 17 years of evaluation, the V-22 has never been tested in
this purely vertical OEI landing or takeoff mode with one engine
completely shut down, exactly the kind of landing or takeoff necessary
from a small clearing in a jungle or on a mountainside. Since this key
test was omitted, the report's claim cannot be considered seriously.
Furthermore, because any OEI situation will immediately deprive the
aircraft of 50 percent of its previous max power capability, and given
that the V-22's prop design does not permit a helicopter-type
pre-landing flare, vertical landing of a loaded OEI Osprey would result
in substantial landing impact with probable damage to the aircraft."

V-22 crew chief Staff Sgt. Brian Freeman's letter to Gannett's Marine
Corps Times, however, says that:

"...during the last four years flying on the MV-22, I have been
single-engine two times; on both occasions, the aircraft responded as if
nothing had happened. The aircraft's ability to provide lift comes from
its torque available vs. torque required – simply put, if you limit the
amount of torque that a student pilot can use during takeoff or landing
training events, which we do, you in turn simulate a single-engine
profile. I can tell you that there is no difference between actual and
simulated single-engine performance."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...g-shame-03930/

This is not the same thing as landing with an engine shut off.


Vince

On Oct 19, 2:57 pm, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 19, 8:42 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 19, 3:01 am, wrote:
They'll quickly learn that it can only be used in secure areas.
Moving small numbers of men and/or ammo between rear area bases.
A helo losing power can auto-rotate and possibly most or all aboard
will live. One engine gone from the Osprey during transition and
it's game over.
One engine gone in transition has been tested, and passed during
flight test.
BB
I guess everybody has some mountain to climb. It's just fate whether
you live in Kansas or Tibet...
When did they test a fully loaded V-22 with an engine out?

No one, prior to you, said anything about "fully loaded." That was
not in the discussion.
OEI was tested in 1999, as you have acknowledged previously.

The test was a "simulated" oei

Test pilots also conducted simulated OEI (one engine inoperative)
vertical landings, vertical takeoffs, and short takeoffs.http://www.navyleague.org/seapower/m...s_sea_legs.htm

The sea trials test plan requires the V-22 to do practice landings on
five of the ship's 10 helicopter spots to see how it handles in a
variety of conditions, such as strong winds or rough seas. In addition,
the pilots will practice a simulated OEI (one engine inoperative) which
is a no hover vertical landing to the aft end of the ship, vertical
take-offs from a helo spot, and shipboard short take-offs.

They simulate it by running both engines at reduced power

"Although a V-22 program spokesperson told me that its testing regimen
has included a number of one engine inoperative (OEI) transitions in
level flight and in steeply angled descents to roll-on landings (and
equivalent rolling short takeoffs),16144 it is disturbing to note that
during its 17 years of evaluation, the V-22 has never been tested in
this purely vertical OEI landing or takeoff mode with one engine
completely shut down, exactly the kind of landing or takeoff necessary
from a small clearing in a jungle or on a mountainside. Since this key
test was omitted, the report's claim cannot be considered seriously.
Furthermore, because any OEI situation will immediately deprive the
aircraft of 50 percent of its previous max power capability, and given
that the V-22's prop design does not permit a helicopter-type
pre-landing flare, vertical landing of a loaded OEI Osprey would result
in substantial landing impact with probable damage to the aircraft."

V-22 crew chief Staff Sgt. Brian Freeman's letter to Gannett's Marine
Corps Times, however, says that:

"...during the last four years flying on the MV-22, I have been
single-engine two times; on both occasions, the aircraft responded as if
nothing had happened. The aircraft's ability to provide lift comes from
its torque available vs. torque required - simply put, if you limit the
amount of torque that a student pilot can use during takeoff or landing
training events, which we do, you in turn simulate a single-engine
profile. I can tell you that there is no difference between actual and
simulated single-engine performance."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...g-shame-03930/

This is not the same thing as landing with an engine shut off.

Vince

This is a second posting of this

http://www.news.com/2300-11397_3-621...tag=ne.gall.pg

Notice the ability of the rope to keep the V-22 airborne and steady,
despite having the rotors stopped.

On Oct 19, 11:57 am, Vince wrote:

V-22 crew chief Staff Sgt. Brian Freeman's letter to Gannett's Marine
Corps Times, however, says that:

"...during the last four years flying on the MV-22, I have been
single-engine two times; on both occasions, the aircraft responded as if
nothing had happened. The aircraft's ability to provide lift comes from
its torque available vs. torque required - simply put, if you limit the
amount of torque that a student pilot can use during takeoff or landing
training events, which we do, you in turn simulate a single-engine
profile. I can tell you that there is no difference between actual and
simulated single-engine performance."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...g-shame-03930/

This is not the same thing as landing with an engine shut off.

Vince

No it isn't, but it is still a valid test of the OEI operability.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...

Vince wrote:
[snip]


They simulate it by running both engines at reduced power

With one engine out the I would expect the Osprey to roll
badly at low speed. An effect that reducing both engines
would not simulate.

Andrew Swallow