Running dry?

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:4Z9Oe.272046$_o.92006@attbi_s71...

Here's an easy way to make sure you never run out of gas.

Since you have been so didactic in your statements in this thread, I'll
assume you are equally so in this post.


1. Refuel after every flight. You will be ready to go for your next
flight, and can rest assured that you have gas on board. (Renters will
have to switch this to refueling BEFORE every flight.)

Might be a problem if you ever need less than full tanks for weight.


2. Install a fuel totalizer. They are cheap (in aviation money), and will
tell you your fuel usage to within a few ounces. (Sorry, renters. Get on
the FBO to install one.)

Yes, they will tell you your usage. But... I travel a lot, often landing at
airports where a line guy fills the tanks. They don't all fill to the same
"top", so when I reset my Shadin I don't really know if I have "full" tanks.
I manually subtract 10 gallons from the full setting if the tanks seem lower
than a normal top during preflight.


3. Never try to stretch your range. Bite the bullet, land and buy gas.

Absolutely.


4. Measure your gas with your watch, never your fuel gauges.

Fuel flow changes dramatically with altitude and power settings. I can burn
anywhere from 12 to 16 GPH. Timing is one input, but using the fuel gauges
and the Shadin are equally worthwhile.

Michael

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:53:09 +0000, Jay Honeck wrote:

[snip]
The only thing I'm confused about is how a group of pilots can sit here
and argue -- on the STUDENT forum, of all things -- that running a gas
tank dry in flight, on purpose, is a wise thing to do.

It's actually cross posted to piloting too. You don't think students can
learn from a topic which clearly even pilots debate? I don't see anyone
advocating students run out and run their tanks dry. I doubt you do
either. I'm really not sure what your point is here.


Apparently you can't grasp the subtlety of what I'm saying, so allow me
to

Actually, I'm fairly sure EVERYONE here grasps exactly what you're saying.
Just not everyone agrees with you. You've been very clear. Everyone that
disagrees with you is dumb. Point made. The horse is dead. Move on.

bludgeon you with it: Any pilot who knowingly, willingly and routinely
runs gas tanks dry in flight displays a cavalier attitude toward fuel
management. Running a tank dry by accident indicates poor planning.
Running a tank dry on purpose indicates poor fuel management. Both are
dumb. Both are dangerous.


Hmmm. I'm thinking I've read this before. You've been very clear.
Everyone that disagrees with you is dumb. Point made. The horse is dead.
Move on.

To suggest otherwise in a forum where student pilots gather is unwise.


Yes! You would never want students, which will one day turn into pilots,
to be equiped to think for themselves having read other pilots sound off.
Won't someone think of the children!

Lastly, I should add, I believe this type of procedure is SOP for many
military piston pilots where range it critical to their mission. Please
correct me as needed. If this were a high risk venture, I doubt it
would SOP. As such, I believe the risk of a non-start for many planes
is very low. IMHO, the only remaining question is, what risk are you
willing to tolorate and what is the REAL risk of a non-start. Is the
risk one in a million? One in a billion? One in a hundred?

You ask this question as if we are on an equal situational footing with
military pilots.

Wrong. I asked a question as any intelligent person would. I know I
don't know everything. Part of flying is risk assessment. How is my
question any different? It's not. Exactly. If we don't understand the
risk, which was my point, it's pretty dang hard to do any type of real
risk assessment. If anything, that should serve as a warning to ay
potential student wanting to rush out and run a tank dry. I'm still not
realy sure what you're point is.

99.999% of the people reading this post are GA pilots
(or students) whose main concern will be missing a day of work if
they're late getting back from vacation. There is NO reason for any
pilot here to fly to the maximum range of their aircraft, and to talk

It's nice how you plugged in your own take on things and assert that this
is the only fact. Simple fact is, YOU are the only one asserting this has
anything to do with maximum range. Everyone else, including Deakin, is
asserting it's a fuel strategy to better know your plane, to better plan
your trip, and to better understand how long you can fly should the worst
happen (need to eat into your reserves). I'll happily stick with the
actual topic rather than your emotional redefinition.

about using a procedure that is "SOP for many military piston pilots
where range is critical to their mission", as if that is justification
for running a tank dry, is just crazy talk.


Nope. Did not such thing. The point, which you seemingly refuse to
understand, is that you certainly don't hear, see, or read about planes
falling out of the air because pilots were switching tanks. Ya, I know
you'll ignore that point again. A point which many others have made
elsewhere already. Others, which we all now know are dumb.

Do you run your engine as low as possible on oil, too, just to extend
the range between oil changes? Shoot, according the book, my Lycoming
O-540 will run on as little as 2 quarts of oil -- why am I dumping those
other 10 quarts in, anyway?

Are you insane? You have no point and the above is completely
non-topical. Your example is, well, dumb, insulting, and just plain out
there.

Don't expect a reply unless you have something new to add; which better
yet, would be topical.


Greg

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:34:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


4. Measure your gas with your watch, never your fuel gauges.

That has served me well for a long time.

Mike Weller

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:59:07 -0500, Mike Weller
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:34:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


4. Measure your gas with your watch, never your fuel gauges.

That has served me well for a long time.

Mike Weller



I used to believe the same mantra. But one flight many years ago changed
my mind.

You need to believe the method that is the most conservative at the time.

Some years ago, when I believed as you wrote, a tank ran dry unexpectedly
about 12,000 feet over the hills of W Va. Not a very hospitable place.
The tank ran dry about 5 minutes before I was planning to switch, at a time
when there should have been about 20 minutes of fuel remaining.

The fact that it ran dry allowed me to refigure my fuel consumption and
know what I had left in the other tank. The closest airport happened to be
my planned destination (CRW) and I landed with maybe 15 minutes of fuel
remaining, instead of the planned for 60 minutes.

The problem turned out to be a leaky gasket in the fuel servo, increasing
my fuel consumption by about 10-15%, if I recall correctly.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:59:07 -0500, Mike Weller
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:34:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


4. Measure your gas with your watch, never your fuel gauges.

That has served me well for a long time.

Mike Weller



I used to believe the same mantra. But one flight many years ago changed
my mind.

You need to believe the method that is the most conservative at the time.

Some years ago, when I believed as you wrote, a tank ran dry unexpectedly
about 12,000 feet over the hills of W Va. Not a very hospitable place.
The tank ran dry about 5 minutes before I was planning to switch, at a
time
when there should have been about 20 minutes of fuel remaining.

The fact that it ran dry allowed me to refigure my fuel consumption and
know what I had left in the other tank. The closest airport happened to
be
my planned destination (CRW) and I landed with maybe 15 minutes of fuel
remaining, instead of the planned for 60 minutes.

The problem turned out to be a leaky gasket in the fuel servo, increasing
my fuel consumption by about 10-15%, if I recall correctly.

What says a fuel gauge is any more or less accurate than a fuel FLOW gauge?

Jay,

Running a tank dry probably won't lead to anything worse than sucking all
the crap out of your gas tanks

Well, that is precisely what won't happen.

Pilots who end up landing off-airport (or, worse, dying) because of
something as stupid as running out of gas

Those pilots have NOTHING at all to do with what we're discussing here. on the
contrary, we're discussing precise fuel planning.

Here's an easy way to make sure you never run out of gas.

1. Refuel after every flight.

If you're talking about topping off, that may be practical in your plane -
congrats on that! It isn't in mine and it sure isn't in the majority of
single-engine four-seaters, since you're giving up WAY too much useful load.

2. Install a fuel totalizer.

Which becomes even more useful when running tanks dry.

3. Never try to stretch your range. Bite the bullet, land and buy gas.

Which has nothing to do with the technique recommended here.

4. Measure your gas with your watch, never your fuel gauges.

Which, again, has nothing to do with the technique recommended here.


Sorry, I still fail to see your point.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Matt,

What says a fuel gauge is any more or less accurate than a fuel FLOW gauge?


Experience gd&r. Seriously, most fuel gauges are horrendously unreliable.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Neil,

I would feel more comfortable with 4 in each tank than with a dry tank.


Well, I definitely wouldn't, the odd and very rare fuel selector
malfunction notwithstanding.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jay,

Apparently you can't grasp the subtlety of what I'm saying,

There's nothing subtle at all in claiming what someone else writes (and makes
an argument for quite elaborately) is "dumb". And that's all you offer, some
nice "if you're not with me, you're against me" rethoric. Sad, actually.


so allow me to
bludgeon you with it: Any pilot who knowingly, willingly and routinely runs
gas tanks dry in flight displays a cavalier attitude toward fuel management.
Running a tank dry by accident indicates poor planning. Running a tank dry
on purpose indicates poor fuel management. Both are dumb. Both are
dangerous.

Sorry, but that's BS, plain and simple.


Do you run your engine as low as possible on oil, too, just to extend the
range between oil changes?

Not as low as possible, but certainly below the allowed maxium. I do it to
avoid blowing oil overboard senselessly. I have never filled up to the maximum
allowed. It would be dumb.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:48:12 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:

What says a fuel gauge is any more or less accurate than a fuel FLOW gauge?

I don't see the relationship of your question to anything I posted. But
certainly in the ranges over a quarter tank, experience in small a/c show
that a properly calibrated fuel flow gauge is more accurate.

As a matter of fact, I believe that the fuel quantity indicators are only
required to be accurate at zero fuel in level flight (for a/c certified
under Part 23).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)