Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

On Mar 14, 7:52*am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Mar 13, 12:55 am, WingFlaps wrote:





On Mar 13, 7:37 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

On Mar 12, 6:05 pm, "Owner" wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...

On Mar 12, 12:31 pm, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
*and as it turned
out the fella was gov qualified to license me,
which he did.
Ken

Which one is you?

Total Names found for KEN TUCKER is 22.

KENNETH CARDEN TUCKER * KENNETH EDWARD TUCKER
KENNETH W TUCKER * KENDALL JOHN TUCKER
KENNETH EDWARD TUCKER * KENNETH RAY TUCKER
KENNETH W TUCKER * KENNETH THOMAS TUCKER
KENNETH RICHARD TUCKER * KENNETH DALE TUCKER
KENNETH E TUCKER * KENNETH J TUCKER
KENNETH JOHN TUCKER * KENT HOWARD TUCKER
KENNETH W TUCKER * KENNETH WAYNE TUCKER
KENT DAVID TUCKER * KENT LEE TUCKER
KENNETH ROYAL TUCKER * KENNETH CLAYTON TUCKER
KENNETH STEVEN TUCKER * KENNETH HAROLD TUCKER

LOL, thank you for your interest in me.
I'm afraid I cannot post my license number
off my old paper license for security reasons,
and not my Mensa number either, or social
security number, CIA file etc. ,
it's all classified.

Yes, your psychologist did say all your information is classified, but I
thought that was due to doctor/patient privileges

u1= -sin H sin P cos R + cos H sin R
u2 = cos H sin P cos R - sin H sin R
u3 = cos P cos R
Unit vector u is up, H is Heading, R is Roll, P is Pitch.

Vectors A = G+L+T+D
A is net acceleration, Gravity, Lift, Thrust, Drag.
G = -1k.

Is any of that familiar?
If so, are the components of u correct?
I'm also a student of aerodynamics.

Nope. Forces don't equal acceleration

LOL, does a "unit" mass shine a light?

Nope, you're still a fraud. G is not -1k in any standard unit system.

Cheers

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
:

On Mar 13, 6:23 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker"
wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you
flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to
the ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor
started talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to
just roll into it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left
and pulled. Coming up on the proper heading he said now lets do
one the other direction where by I rolled to the right and
pulled. This brought a laughing comment, "You really like to do
these things don't you?" My puzzled "sure", brought the
explanation that most of the Bo pilots would only grudgingly do
45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them complain
when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so they
couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60
degrees or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go
out to practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different
banking tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be
put back to that. There have been moments where I've been glad
they did things that way back then. One such moment was when a
ultra light flying far later than allowed popped out of the dark
directly in front of me when I was no more than a couple hundred
yards (if that) from the end of the runway. Another was on the
VOR approach to MtPleasant where you fly directly over the
runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go missed on 27. When the
instructor's voice went up an octave and he said and I
quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came
but from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet.
BTW I did all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI
that I figured had it been really close he'd have taken over. He
said he figured that I knew the limits of the plane and would
react quicker than he could even if he could see. He was right
though, The urgency (I couldeven feel him tense sitting next to
me) told me that this should be a maximum effort and not just a
climb. Made me glad I use 120 for approaches instead of 80 or 90
too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the
PTS. They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the
limits of the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as
well.

Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins,
some hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember
filing and putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then
being so afraid to deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at
that alt with my fin in the clouds..

Bertie

A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the
requirement was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions
entering one from the other within an altitude parameter either way
of 50 feet. Just racking my memory here but that sounds close.....and
this was for the PRIVATE!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques

An instrument that was stressed for me during
instruction was this,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_indicator

The 60 degree banked turn (IIRC), did require that
50' +/- altitude, keeping the ball centered, and
maintaining a constant KIAS with some +power.

When that 50' +/- requirement was spec'd by the
instructor I got fixated on the "rate of climb"
indicator.
Well he smirked and sent my concentration to the
attitude indicator and to learn to use that.
Other pilots have mentioned the attitude indicator
is the most important instrument.
What do you guys think?

That you're full of ****.


Bertie

Mr. BIG HEAD, you've lost a star and the Mr.
You now just *Big Head*, you make too many
mistakes.

On Mar 13, 11:42 am, wrote:
On Mar 13, 1:19 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

An instrument that was stressed for me during
instruction was this,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_indicator

The 60 degree banked turn (IIRC), did require that
50' +/- altitude, keeping the ball centered, and
maintaining a constant KIAS with some +power.

When that 50' +/- requirement was spec'd by the
instructor I got fixated on the "rate of climb"
indicator.
Well he smirked and sent my concentration to the
attitude indicator and to learn to use that.
Other pilots have mentioned the attitude indicator
is the most important instrument.
What do you guys think?
Ken

We think it shows you have not had any training. PPL students
are told to LOOK OUTSIDE during steep turn training, not to fixate on
instruments.

Night flying, IFR initiation, in good VFR the OUTSIDE
is peripheral vision, if you ever really flew an airplane.

They need to see what the horizon is up to, not what
instruments are indicating. A glance at the ASI and altimeter every
few seconds is in order, but they're not to refer to the AI constantly
for steep turns.

How the **** do you set-up to a 60 bank?
and maintain constant altitude?

We've had students who were all over the sky, chasing
instrument needles, so we sometimes cover up the whole panel and make
them do it by looking outside; the airplane settles down and behaves
itself. Amazing.

No that's pure BS.

This is standard Canadian PPL curriculum, and the US wouldn't
be much different.
Dan

Dan you don't even know what an Attitude Indicator does,
otherwise you would have opined on my question.

I'll leave *Big Head* Dan with one star, but probationary.
Ken

I didn't mean it directly indicates bank. But at a given airspeed
(maneuvering in my instance) and no yaw you can come up with a good
approximation of a steep turn with the airplane in the coordinator pegged.
I haven't done it without partial panel so I don't know what it equated to
but if a standard rate is around 17 degrees at my airspeed it should be
around double that. It was probably close to 40-45 degrees at that
airspeed. Close enough for the instructional purpose of partial panel 720's
and then rollout the opposite way.



"WingFlaps" wrote in message
...
On Mar 14, 4:36 am, "Ron A." wrote:
I didn't know at the time about turning more than standard rate on the
coordinator, it was something I hadn't done when he requested it. The peg
is around 45 degrees or so. I was also watching my airspeed for decay
while
maintaining level flight. And I know you aren't supposed to use the
feeling
in your butt for instrument flight, but it I couldn't help it being a
newbie
to instrument flight. I of course rely on the instruments when they don't
agree with my body.


I think something is not quite right here. I may have this wrong, but
the TC doesn't indicate angle of bank at all. It's a rate instrument
and indicates rate of roll and rate of turn (plus ball) -at least
that's what I learnt. In that case where the peg is does not inicate
angle of bank but rate of bank/turn

Cheers

On Mar 13, 2:32 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
We think it shows you have not had any training. PPL students
are told to LOOK OUTSIDE during steep turn training, not to fixate on
instruments.

Night flying, IFR initiation, in good VFR the OUTSIDE
is peripheral vision, if you ever really flew an airplane.

They need to see what the horizon is up to, not what
instruments are indicating. A glance at the ASI and altimeter every
few seconds is in order, but they're not to refer to the AI constantly
for steep turns.

How the **** do you set-up to a 60 bank?
and maintain constant altitude?

We've had students who were all over the sky, chasing
instrument needles, so we sometimes cover up the whole panel and make
them do it by looking outside; the airplane settles down and behaves
itself. Amazing.

No that's pure BS.

This is standard Canadian PPL curriculum, and the US wouldn't
be much different.
Dan

Dan you don't even know what an Attitude Indicator does,
otherwise you would have opined on my question.

I'll leave *Big Head* Dan with one star, but probationary.
Ken


Then how do you explain away this lesson from people who
teach flying? I quote:

"When the required bank angle is achieved, keep it constant with
aileron control. Now
look at the reference of the plane nose to the horizon and
occasionally glance at the instruments.
Don't fixate on the instruments. Get familiar with the position of the
plane and the horizon on
both the left and right steep turn."
That's from http://www.forderlearntofly.com/less...son1_turns.pdf

Your only defense, Ken, is the standard "You don't know anything"
that you hand out to anyone who calls you on your baloney. Can't get a
weaker defense than that.

Dan
Now let's see you do it on the next page.

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
... in good VFR the OUTSIDE
is peripheral vision, if you ever really flew an airplane.


This is the part of his post that proves he doesn't know his ass from a
hole in the ground.

To 'big head'...you lost your last star :-(.

On Mar 13, 1:12 pm, wrote:
On Mar 13, 2:32 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:



We think it shows you have not had any training. PPL students
are told to LOOK OUTSIDE during steep turn training, not to fixate on
instruments.

Night flying, IFR initiation, in good VFR the OUTSIDE
is peripheral vision, if you ever really flew an airplane.

They need to see what the horizon is up to, not what
instruments are indicating. A glance at the ASI and altimeter every
few seconds is in order, but they're not to refer to the AI constantly
for steep turns.

How the **** do you set-up to a 60 bank?
and maintain constant altitude?

We've had students who were all over the sky, chasing
instrument needles, so we sometimes cover up the whole panel and make
them do it by looking outside; the airplane settles down and behaves
itself. Amazing.

No that's pure BS.

This is standard Canadian PPL curriculum, and the US wouldn't
be much different.
Dan

Dan you don't even know what an Attitude Indicator does,
otherwise you would have opined on my question.

I'll leave *Big Head* Dan with one star, but probationary.
Ken

Then how do you explain away this lesson from people who
teach flying? I quote:

"When the required bank angle is achieved, keep it constant with
aileron control. Now
look at the reference of the plane nose to the horizon and
occasionally glance at the instruments.
Don't fixate on the instruments. Get familiar with the position of the
plane and the horizon on
both the left and right steep turn."
That's from http://www.forderlearntofly.com/less...son1_turns.pdf

Your only defense, Ken, is the standard "You don't know anything"
that you hand out to anyone who calls you on your baloney. Can't get a
weaker defense than that.

Dan
Now let's see you do it on the next page.

Some of what you say is true for beginners, but
a good instructor also thinks ahead to weaning
the student to *night flying*, IFR, and possible
inadvertent bad weather, where VFR fails.

In GROUND SCHOOL, we were taught the why
of this instrument lay-out, (note the Attitude ),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_instruments

'big head' Dan, you don't know the function of
the primary AI and why it it is prominent, and
after reading your 60 deg bank post for 2 days
you FAILED to mention the throttle adjustment,
to maintain constant KIAS in the bank, inspite
of my hints.

One instructor I had, got into the right seat with
a clip board. He'd say bank 30 come to heading
XX and while I was doing that he'd being reading
the instruments and marking on his clip-board.
((He wouldn't let me read what he marked)).

He was very strict but friendly with candor and
very soon I gained a lot of respect for him.

((His name was Bob Burton, operating out of
Oshawa Flying Club at that time)).
Ken

On Mar 14, 10:29 am, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
... in good VFR the OUTSIDE
is peripheral vision, if you ever really flew an airplane.

This is the part of his post that proves he doesn't know his ass from a
hole in the ground.

If he flew we'd know it because of the hole in the ground !

"WingFlaps" wrote in message
...
On Mar 13, 11:14 am, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way
D0t C0m wrote:


Note: as others are beating to death - stall speed doesn't change with
bank.

Do you really mean that?


Yup.

Bank is controlled by ailerons.

The angle of attack (which results in stalls) is controlled by the elevators
which don't cause the aircraft to bank.

No yank, no change in stall speed. If you do pull, you will increase the
stall speed - banked or not.

How do you do a snap roll? (flick roll if you are on the East side of teh
Atlantic)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On Mar 13, 4:08 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

'big head' Dan, you don't know the function of
the primary AI and why it it is prominent, and
after reading your 60 deg bank post for 2 days
you FAILED to mention the throttle adjustment,
to maintain constant KIAS in the bank, inspite
of my hints.

Your flight training appears to come entirely from Wikipedia.
Cut and paste, again. Tell me, now, what is the difference between a
turn coordinator and a turn and bank indicator? Tell me what apparent
precession is, versus drift. How is that sort of drift different from
illusion caused by drift? Why can it be dangerous? Tell me what an
attitude indicator will read after you level out from an extended
steep turn, say a minute or two of turning? What keeps the gyro erect
in an attitude indicator? What's the basic idea behind a laser gyro?
Why is it harder to do a right-hand steep turn as opposed to left?
What is P-factor? What is acceleration error? What is Northerly
turning error? This is all stuff our PPLs get. You have ten minutes.
And once again, you just assert that I don't fly. Well, I was
out not two hours ago, in my Jodel. When was the last time you flew (a
real airplane)?

Dan