One Design viability?

The one factor that makes a huge difference is the local conditions ,areas
that have
the thermals closer together, more landable terrain under the course area
then
the PW5 is viable and doing what it was designed for. eg: upper North Island
of
New Zealand The last World Class Championships in Poland had similar
conditions
and was quite successful.
I used to fly a K6E xcountry and did regular flights in the 250-350km range
and
that is roughly the performance of the PW5 but say desert or arid land
conditions
then speeds get to high then the reputation suffers because the flight
/performance
envelope does not match the local conditions.
Another interesting point to notice is that the strongest opposing opinions
seem to
originate in areas with stronger conditions where the PW5 does not go well.
gary

"Steve Sovis" wrote in message
news:srHzb.424799$Fm2.428081@attbi_s04...
You are right on, performance is critical to glider competition. 40:1 is
the magic threshold (with a decent high speed polar for penetration, see
below for definition) for really going cross country, at least in the
Eastern US.

Ah, the endless World Class thread. Heck, its 22 degrees outsde, here's
the
" whole story". Might help someone brand new to soaring.

As an avid one design sailor coming to soaring 10 years ago, I was an
active
supporter of the PW-5 movement to the point that I bought a half share in
one. I did this against the advise of very experienced competition pilots
and ultimately found that they were right. I also had a 1/2 share in a
Grob
102 (15 meter Standard Class, about 36:1). The PW was a delightful
handling
ship with limited penetration ability (the ability to fly fast without
falling out of the sky, handy for going upwind which is essential for out
and return cross country) due to its high flat plate area (that upright
cockpit has a price) and a low L/D (32:1) due to its short wing span (13.6
meters). For me it was easier and safer to take the Grob cross country
since it penetrated better.

After a few years I bit the bullet, sold the 1/2 shares and bought my own
ASW-20 (15 meter class 42:1 machine with excellent penetration for its
span). After my first flight I got out saying that "this is a different
sport now". What seemed like unachievable flights before became almost
routine. The learning curve accellerated. After attending a few
competitions where it was difficult to get in three days in the 20, I
couldn't imagine trying to get in a decent competition in the PW.
Performance not only matters, but it is critical to get to the 40:1
threshold. Strangely, this fact is generally accepted, but somehow it was
set aside by the World Class Committee in the interest of lower cost.
Also,
twice the performance of a 1-26 probably seemed pretty attractive to many
even though it didn't meet the 40:1 threshold.

I am now in the camp of those competition veterans I once ignored. One
Design cross county out and back racing makes some sense, but only in a
glider of at least LS-4 performance. I was always bugged by those that
said
they would rather buy a used LS-4 rather than a PW since the supply of
used
gliders is by definition finite. IMHO, if we want a One Design, let's
make
it something like the LS-4 and put enough promotion and infrastructure
behind it to be able to realize some economies of volume. Better yet
let's
make it the 20, that way I could keep what I got forever, something I'll
probably do anyway :-).

Hope this story helps someone out there.

Best Regards,
Steve Sovis
ASW-20CL "US"



"Papa3" wrote in message
link.net...
Scott,

One problem with this idea is that the difference in "performance" in
sailing has a different impact than in gliding. I used to race
Lightnings
as well as Sunfish. Two very different boats, one MUCH higher
"performance." However, as long as the wind was blowing even a little
bit,
you could have a good, fair race regardless of the craft. So, we were
able
to race almost every time we went to the marina. And, we could even
run
the same courses, just a little slower.

Now think about soaring. Especially outside of those few areas that
have
ideal conditions most of the time, the difference between 30:1 and a
sharply
descending polar vs. 40:1 and a relatively flat polar is the difference
between going somewhere and flying locally. Already in the US, we've
had
a
number of "World Class" competitions in conjunction with the other FAI
classes. Almost without fail, the World Class folks have struggled to
get
in a day (even a drastically shortened course) while the FAI guys were
off
doing 300K. In some cases, these World Class ships were flown by good
competition pilots.

My conclusion is that performance matters more in soaring than in
sailing.
Given that, the next question that pops up is purely one of economics.
If
I
can have much better performance for a similar price, making the ship
usable
not only for races but badges and fun flying as well, then . . .






"Scott Correa" wrote in message
...
All a one design class needs to be successful is a sanctioning
body making it THE choice for contests. Look at the olympics.
Solings for gods sake, tornado's and other low performance
boats. Very strict rules on planform and construction. IMHO
there are much better race boats in the world than what theey use.
The key is that they use them, have contests and promote it as a
class boat.

The PW5 only needs for the sanctioning body of soaring to adopt it
and have a world championship at the venue that the other classes
are held. There are people who would fly for a world title in the
class
if it was flown and promoted that way.

Scott.

on 2003/12/04 11:42 "goneill" as in
posted the following:
The one factor that makes a huge difference is the local conditions, areas
that have the thermals closer together, more landable terrain under the
course area then the PW5 is viable and doing what it was designed for.
[....]
...the strongest opposing opinions seem to originate in areas with stronger
conditions where the PW5 does not go well.

"Steve Sovis" wrote:
You are right on, performance is critical to glider competition. 40:1 is
the magic threshold....

Steve is from Massachusetts, Gary -- not an area noted for its wave, nor for
booming all-day thermals.

The terrain has some good and some bad areas -- in general not as good as
northwestern Ohio, perhaps, but not as bad as West Virginia.


--
Jack

However, before I get too misty-eyed, why the hell
didn't you guys sort out gliding when it was salvageable? If you chaps had
acted in the 70's and 80's instead of swanning around in your Kestrels, we
might have had a vibrant and challenging sport, rather than a refuge for the
wealthy but largely talentless individuals cluttering the thermals today.


Telling tales about being a pilot now. Go ahead fraser. Tell them how
you are a doctor. Tell them about your children. Tell them how your a
brave soldier in an elite unit in the Rhodesian army. Tell them about
how you are a master troller. Time to start adding RRRR to the threads
like ZZZZ's. Here is another one.

After sifting through the thread and some email discussions
with others, I thought I might direct this thread back
to where
it started from. With the number of racing classes
available, and
particularly the sports class-maybe one design is the
problem
as much as the PW5. I get a lot of LS4 promoters,
but a new
LS-4 built in Eastern Europe(with instruments, trailer,
software,
parachute) is still going to cost considerably more
then the used
ASW-20, Ventus, LS6 that are in the low $30k range
these days.

It would be difficult for me to trade in my Ventus
plus at least $20k in order to play the one design
game. Now I am not a
racer type, but I suspect the one design concept was
geared to
entry level racers, which I qualify as. So perhaps
one design is
an idea which was not to be in our current environment.

Stewart Kissel wrote:
I get a lot of LS4 promoters, but a new LS-4 built
in Eastern Europe(with instruments, trailer, software,
parachute) is still going to cost considerably more
then the used ASW-20, Ventus, LS6 that are in the low
$30k range these days.

Or a used LS-4, which would be in the high $20k range, I guess. The
point a lot seem to miss, is that the LS-4 one design class already
exists, there are more than 1000 of them around. It's just that noone
has held any contests for them yet ;-)

Christian 8-)


It would be difficult for me to trade in my Ventus
plus at least $20k in order to play the one design
game. Now I am not a
racer type, but I suspect the one design concept was
geared to
entry level racers, which I qualify as. So perhaps
one design is
an idea which was not to be in our current environment.

U¿ytkownik Christian Husvik w wiadomooci do grup
dyskusyjnych ...
Stewart Kissel wrote:

Or a used LS-4, which would be in the high $20k range, I guess. The
point a lot seem to miss, is that the LS-4 one design class already
exists, there are more than 1000 of them around. It's just that noone
has held any contests for them yet ;-)

Wouldn't any of Standard Jantars do better? There are similar amounts of
both gliders (ca. 1000 both), but Jantars are considerably more
affordable, stronger
built, and also over 40:1. This could save a lot of money, and their
production can be resumed in any time, as the molds and all the parts are
already at Bielsko, as well as all the people who used to produce these
gliders.

JK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janusz Kesik"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:33 AM
Subject: One Design viability?

Or a used LS-4, which would be in the high $20k range, I guess. The
point a lot seem to miss, is that the LS-4 one design class already
exists, there are more than 1000 of them around. It's just that noone
has held any contests for them yet ;-)

Wouldn't any of Standard Jantars do better? There are similar amounts of
both gliders (ca. 1000 both), but Jantars are considerably more
affordable, stronger
built, and also over 40:1. This could save a lot of money, and their
production can be resumed in any time, as the molds and all the parts are
already at Bielsko, as well as all the people who used to produce these
gliders.

JK

Janusz,

Thanks for today's chuckle (whether intentional or unintentional!). Humor
too rarely enters these sort of 'religious discussions'.

For the record, I have no horse in this race, preferring to enjoy soaring
for its (and my own) naturally inherent reasons; I see no reason to feel
strongly about one-design racing, since the person I compete against is
myself.

That noted, I've enjoyed the way you've stuck to your (thoughtful and
well-reasoned) guns in this particular discussion. Having been flying
'non-German glass' - worse, *American* glass (gasp) - for 20+ years, I still
get a chuckle from the attitude (not uncommon in the U.S.), "If it's not
German glass, it's [crap, unsafe, beneath discussion, etc.]." I imagine
owners of some other high-time [American, Finnish, French, Polish, Czech,
Latvian, etc.] gliders might also harbor their own less adamant views...

Thanks again!
Bob - pot-stirring - Whelan


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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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So if there are 1000+ LS4's and 1000+ Jantars, why
not figure
out the handicap and let them race together? What
a minute,
that already exists as sports class. And since one
design means
tweaking, refinishing, reprofiling, etc, etc,....what
is the likelihood of a completely level playing field
anyway? Well the
winter solstice is just around the corner, so another
thread can
deal with the PW5.





At 18:00 06 December 2003, Bob Whelan wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: 'Janusz Kesik'
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:33 AM
Subject: One Design viability?

Or a used LS-4, which would be in the high $20k range,
I guess. The
point a lot seem to miss, is that the LS-4 one design
class already
exists, there are more than 1000 of them around.
It's just that noone
has held any contests for them yet ;-)

Wouldn't any of Standard Jantars do better? There
are similar amounts of
both gliders (ca. 1000 both), but Jantars are considerably
more
affordable, stronger
built, and also over 40:1. This could save a lot of
money, and their
production can be resumed in any time, as the molds
and all the parts are
already at Bielsko, as well as all the people who
used to produce these
gliders.

JK

Janusz,

Thanks for today's chuckle (whether intentional or
unintentional!). Humor
too rarely enters these sort of 'religious discussions'.

For the record, I have no horse in this race, preferring
to enjoy soaring
for its (and my own) naturally inherent reasons; I
see no reason to feel
strongly about one-design racing, since the person
I compete against is
myself.

That noted, I've enjoyed the way you've stuck to your
(thoughtful and
well-reasoned) guns in this particular discussion.
Having been flying
'non-German glass' - worse, *American* glass (gasp)
- for 20+ years, I still
get a chuckle from the attitude (not uncommon in the
U.S.), 'If it's not
German glass, it's [crap, unsafe, beneath discussion,
etc.].' I imagine
owners of some other high-time [American, Finnish,
French, Polish, Czech,
Latvian, etc.] gliders might also harbor their own
less adamant views...

Thanks again!
Bob - pot-stirring - Whelan


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date:
11/10/2003

So if there are 1000+ LS4's and 1000+ Jantars, why
not figure
out the handicap and let them race together? What
a minute,
that already exists as sports class. And since one
design means
tweaking, refinishing, reprofiling, etc, etc,....what
is the likelihood of a completely level playing field
anyway? Well the
winter solstice is just around the corner, so another
thread can
deal with the PW5.



From doing a bit more research, it seems the IGC
World Class goal was really just lowest cost. It
wasn't really aimed at seasoned racing pilots.

So I suppose it succeeded in its goal. Hmmm...
maybe the Russia will be the next World Class glider...
Boy wouldn't it be nice if it was at least
an AC-4c (retractable) though? :-P

Jeez,

This things comes full circle about once every 2 weeks it seems...

The only one-design class I know of is the "World Class" (the PW-5), there
are no others.

The LS-4 and the Jantars are "Standard Class" gliders, which were
competitive in this class during the 70s.
Today, you can fly all of them in the sports class (since this class uses
handicap), where you can in fact mix both old and new together.

The PW-5 was designed to be the Olympic class glider, and therefore be
easily manufactured by anybody (in the same way the Olympic sail boats such
as the Star, Laser, 49er, etec which are manufacture in many countries at
various costs).
For those who want to compete in the olympic games, this is the way.
For those with big budgets and ocean crossing aspirations, there are many
other "Professional" classes, all the way up to the Maxis, Volvo Ocean
Racers, or the Americas Cup (for those who like spending millions in local
"drag racing").

Likewise in Soaring, PW-5 are for the World Air Games.

If you like more performance, buy one of the other classes and have fun.
Stop bitching about it.




"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
After sifting through the thread and some email discussions
with others, I thought I might direct this thread back
to where
it started from. With the number of racing classes
available, and
particularly the sports class-maybe one design is the
problem
as much as the PW5. I get a lot of LS4 promoters,
but a new
LS-4 built in Eastern Europe(with instruments, trailer,
software,
parachute) is still going to cost considerably more
then the used
ASW-20, Ventus, LS6 that are in the low $30k range
these days.

It would be difficult for me to trade in my Ventus
plus at least $20k in order to play the one design
game. Now I am not a
racer type, but I suspect the one design concept was
geared to
entry level racers, which I qualify as. So perhaps
one design is
an idea which was not to be in our current environment.