If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Hi Chris-
Thanks for herding the discussion toward more science and less emotion. I apologize to anyone that may have been offended by my comments above re "clueless". One person wrote a nice note pointing out that the family is grieving enough without that type of thing. The point I was trying to make was that those of us that choose to fly these very long winged aircraft need to be keenly aware of impending problems and react to them immediately should they begin to develop. If you decide to thermal in turbulent conditions at just above stall speed then you should be on edge every second you are doing so and if a gust begins to push you into a spin or spiral then you should execute your already planned out and hopefully second nature, correction. If you haven't thought of this plan or possibility then you have no business flying at those speeds in that aircraft. Will having a plan ALWAYS get you out of trouble? No. But as others have pointed out, in these birds you only have a very short time before there is not any amount of skill that will save the aircraft. Sorry to digress Chris.....I'd still really like to hear more about the aerodynamic reasons that things go awry.....can only help to formulate the best plan of action! Casey |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
|
#33
|
|||
|
|||
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:11:53 UTC, Stefan
wrote: And any pilot who is even remotely tempted to pull back the stick in a spin is not airworthy. I suspect that many or all of us are to some extent tempted to do just that. That's why we need training and practice in the right thing ... Ian -- |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
"Ian Johnston" wrote in message news:dzZo7CxomoOm-pn2-39ddFD9pBSKp@localhost... On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:54:44 UTC, wrote: I wonder at the thread though. Everyone discussing recognition of a fully developed spin versus spiral dive. Isn't it generally more useful to recognize the difference between a just-developing spin and a just-developing spiral dive? Which reminds me of Johnston's Test Question for BGA Instructors Number Three: "The offical recovery from a stall with wing drop is different from the official recovery from a spin. At what point do you, personally, transition from one to the other?" Ian As often happens, the BGA comes through with some useful wisdom. Thanks, Ian. As for the difference in sensations between an incipient spin and incipient spiral, the former seems to me to be like an uncommanded yaw and the later like an uncommanded roll. To me, at least, they clearly say that if the situation is allowed to continue without intervention, the uncommanded yaw will become a spin and the uncommanded roll will become a spiral. I wish I could capture the sensations and record them. They would be very useful in training. As for a spinable trainer with similar characteristics, the venerable IS28b2 would do a creditable job of either spin or spiral and build up speed like crazy in the ensuing dive. It had the requisite large inertia about all axes. I found it taught me a lot about how to fly a Nimbus. Bill Daniels |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
Bill Daniels writes
"The offical recovery from a stall with wing drop is different from the official recovery from a spin. At what point do you, personally, transition from one to the other?" I'm curious. Although in practical terms I'm quite confident (through practice) that I can tell one from the other and react and recover accordingly, but how would you phrase the answer to that? -- Bill Gribble http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk - Learn from the mistakes of others. - You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself. |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
The answer is simple: Stall with a wing drop the first
action is to reduce the AoA, move the stick forward to unstall the wing. The action for a spin is: opposite rudder (to stop the yaw/rotation) and then move the stick progressively forward to unstall the wing. The recovery from there is the same. The important point is that with the wing down stall the stick forward comes first and rudder may be used to conteract any yaw present. With the spin the rudder MUST come first. In flapped gliders the first action should be flaps to neutral, well with my flapped glider it should be. At 16:18 23 June 2005, T O D D P A T T I S T wrote: Bill Gribble wrote: 'The offical recovery from a stall with wing drop is different from the official recovery from a spin. At what point do you, personally, transition from one to the other?' I'm curious. Although in practical terms I'm quite confident (through practice) that I can tell one from the other and react and recover accordingly, but how would you phrase the answer to that? I'd phrase my answer in terms of pitch down and rotation angles. T o d d P a t t i s t - 'WH' Ventus C (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.) |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:18:58 UTC, Don Johnstone
wrote: The answer is simple: Stall with a wing drop the first action is to reduce the AoA, move the stick forward to unstall the wing. The action for a spin is: opposite rudder (to stop the yaw/rotation) and then move the stick progressively forward to unstall the wing. The recovery from there is the same. Of course. But how far does the wing have to drop - how much does the glider have to roll at the stall - before you take spin recovery action rather than stall with wing drop recovery action? In real life, on the final turn, you have approximately 0.3 seconds to answer this question ... ian |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
The answer is again simple and goes to recognition.
A stall with wing drop is just that and provided action is taken to solve that problem, unstall the wing, the a spin will be prevented. A spin is the result of failure at the first step for whatever reason. Everyone properly trained will know the difference. I would suggest that if you get to the point of a fully developed spin on the final turn the chances of recovery before the ground gets in the way are very remote, unless you final turn above 600 feet that is, so you better recognise and deal with that stall\wing drop. I have thought about this and decided that if I ever get to the point where I do get to a fully developed spin at final turn height I am going to spin in, rather that than tent peg half way through the recovery. My philosophy teaches recognition of the approach of the problem so it can be prevented and this is still not given sufficient emphasis in training. Yes train people to recover from fully developed spins but if you do the job right and train so that they recognise the approach and take the correct preventative action they will never need to recover from a spin. Now here's a question. Given the answer above why when the wing drops at the start of a take off run (winch or aero-tow) does everyone almost without exception try and lift the downgoing wing with aileron? At 20:42 23 June 2005, Ian Johnston wrote: On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:18:58 UTC, Don Johnstone wrote: The answer is simple: Stall with a wing drop the first action is to reduce the AoA, move the stick forward to unstall the wing. The action for a spin is: opposite rudder (to stop the yaw/rotation) and then move the stick progressively forward to unstall the wing. The recovery from there is the same. Of course. But how far does the wing have to drop - how much does the glider have to roll at the stall - before you take spin recovery action rather than stall with wing drop recovery action? In real life, on the final turn, you have approximately 0.3 seconds to answer this question ... ian |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
Ian Johnston wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:18:58 UTC, Don Johnstone wrote: The answer is simple: Stall with a wing drop the first action is to reduce the AoA, move the stick forward to unstall the wing. The action for a spin is: opposite rudder (to stop the yaw/rotation) and then move the stick progressively forward to unstall the wing. The recovery from there is the same. Of course. But how far does the wing have to drop - how much does the glider have to roll at the stall - before you take spin recovery action rather than stall with wing drop recovery action? In real life, on the final turn, you have approximately 0.3 seconds to answer this question ... ian Has anyone mentioned the yaw string on these wide birds? What's it doing during incipient diving vs. spinning? Bob |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:27:25 UTC, Don Johnstone
wrote: The answer is again simple and goes to recognition. A stall with wing drop is just that and provided action is taken to solve that problem, unstall the wing, the a spin will be prevented. A spin is the result of failure at the first step for whatever reason. Everyone properly trained will know the difference. OK, so how would you described the difference. How far does the wing have to drop before /you/ use spin recovery rather than stall recovery? I'm genuinely interested: it's not supposed to be a trick question in any way. Ian |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) | Rich Stowell | Aerobatics | 28 | January 2nd 09 02:26 PM |
bush rules! | Be Kind | Military Aviation | 53 | February 14th 04 04:26 PM |
AmeriFlight Crash | C J Campbell | Piloting | 5 | December 1st 03 02:13 PM |
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools | RT | Military Aviation | 104 | September 25th 03 03:17 PM |
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) | Rich Stowell | Piloting | 25 | September 11th 03 01:27 PM |