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21m tipped Lak 17b!



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 22nd 13, 01:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean F (F2)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 573
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:30:30 AM UTC-4, Muttley wrote:
On Saturday, October 19, 2013 4:46:54 PM UTC+1, Paul T wrote:

So Lak are producing a 21m tipped LAK 17B - so a glider you cn fly in 15,




18, and Open Class - will it be competetive in any?




Many of the Lak 17 FES flown in the European competitions were the A Models

I believe the B version is an improvement.


Great point Muttley!!!
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  #12  
Old October 22nd 13, 02:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean F (F2)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 573
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

Muttley,

Great point. Mostly, 17a's have been converted to FES in Europe. There are far more 17a's competing than 17b's at this point worldwide. 17b's are sometimes confused for 17a's in the registration sheets because 17b's are fairly rare.

Not sure how many are in North America. I only know of 3 or 4 at this point. I do not know if any have competed (regional or national US competition) outside the Uvalde Worlds in the USA to date (those where non US pilots).

I am thinking about purchasing one, although I am also thinking of purchasing a 29. I think there is one other competitive Canadian who is thinking of a 17b as well. Would be interesting to see them compete in the US against the others.

One thing is getting a proper handicap for the FES vs. non FES (pure) version in the US. The propeller on the FES injures performance 1-2.5% depending on speed. As it stands now the US has not made a handicap for FES equipped gliders.....................hint, hint, hint handicap committee.........As it stands you have absolutely NO performance degradation in your handicapping. Only the gross weight is factored. This is unfair.

Sean
F2



On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:30:30 AM UTC-4, Muttley wrote:
On Saturday, October 19, 2013 4:46:54 PM UTC+1, Paul T wrote:

So Lak are producing a 21m tipped LAK 17B - so a glider you cn fly in 15,




18, and Open Class - will it be competetive in any?




Many of the Lak 17 FES flown in the European competitions were the A Models

I believe the B version is an improvement.

  #13  
Old October 22nd 13, 06:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul T[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 228
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

Sorry - tounge in cheek comment about the 29 - I'm English. The problem
with ASH 31 (not ASG 31) is the motor and too much wing area -it was
designed more as a recreational self launcher than a competitive ship

Looks like the JSIc will be the best bang for the buck if your serious
competing in both 18 and Open Class - the Lak 17b maybe for 15 and 18m?
(depending on what the Ventus 2 replacement will be like!- but that'll
probably cost a lot more)

The JS1C certainly seems competetive with the Quintus and EB29 which cost a
fair bit more - but your also paying for the ability to self launch I geuss
with the latter two.

But I like the concept of a ship that can be flown at 3 diffferent spans!
Did Vytas say it can be flown at 15, 18, and 21m?



At 18:36 21 October 2013, Sean F F2 wrote:
Paul,

I just got an email back from Vytas (owner of Lak factory). Here is his
st=
atement: "MAX mass remains 600 kg as 18 m class mass, as no space for
more=
water."

That makes sense to me. I think there is ZERO chance the ASG29 will ever
g=
et 21 meter tips OR 800kg max weight as its wing is simply not designed
for=
the loads (just like the 17b). Also, the 18 meter tips barely fit in

the
=
trailer. Makes me wonder how the Lak17b could fit all these wingtips in

a
=
trailer as well. Anyway, the requirement for a 21 meter single for
Schleic=
her has been fulfilled by the ASG 31. =20

Info on ASG31 ---
http://www.alexander-schleicher.de/p.../ash31/ash31_=
main_e.htm

The 31, as with most motor gliders, has too much wing loading in 18 meter
c=
onfiguration when flying in weak lift. It is better at 21 meters where

it
=
can go to 700 kg and 10.8 lbs/sqft wing loading (no, not 800!). Min wing
l=
oading looks to be about 8.82 (with a 200 lb pilot) in 18 meter and 8.09
in=
21 meter.

Hope this helps to answer your questions on the Schleicher's.

Sean=20


On Monday, October 21, 2013 1:20:15 PM UTC-4, Paul T wrote:
No specs on the website yet - but announced on Blanik America site and

in
=20
the article on the Mini Lak on their news pages about the tips.
=20
=20
=20
I'm presuming you can fly at 15. 18 and 21m with the same ship? Which

wi=
ll
=20
probably make it a popular ship in the US- and agree with Sean

bargai=
n
=20
and piloting points.
=20
=20
=20
Upping to 850 kg probably not on- but maybe around the 650-700kg mark?
=20
which would probably give it a similar wing loading to the JS1 with the
=20
smaller wing area.
=20
=20
=20
Now I wonder if the asg 29 is going to be tipped to 21m? (I know its a
=20
tipped 27! and they have the ASH 31).
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
At 16:36 21 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
=20
You mean 850Kg? =20

=20

=20
If a 21m Lak 17B were to have a wing area similar to the=20

=20
12.25m2 of the JS1C 21m then at 850kg MAUW it would have a=20

=20
wingloading of over 69kg/m2! I am not sure where the water=20

=20
would go. With the JS1C 21m you need to fill the wings, the=20

=20
21m tips, have fuselage tanks full of water or fuel and a not too=20

=20
lightweight pilot to get to the MAUW 720kg and 59kg/m2

=20

=20
Furthermore an 21m Lak 17 is likely to have an even smaller=20

=20
wing area (and ?less water capacity) because the 18m Lak has=20

=20
a wing area of 10.32m2 compared to 11.21m2 for an 18m JS1.

=20

=20
John Galloway

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20
At 15:32 21 October 2013, Sean F F2 wrote:

=20
They need a strong US (or Canadian) pilot RACING the glider=20

=20
in US contests.

=20
Period.

=20

=20
The Uvalde and Euro pilots have not been top shelf. JS1 is=20

=20
better

=20
connected and has many top pilots flying their hardware in=20

=20
contrast. =20

=20

=20
I agree the 21 meter version needs to be at 850 if it is going=20

=20
to be

=20
seriously competitive at a world level BUT...in the US east=20

=20
coast contest

=20
environment it would probably be just fine if it was not able to=20

=20
achieve

=20
850.

=20

=20
I'll check and see what the specs say on the website...

=20

=20

=20



  #14  
Old October 22nd 13, 09:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean F (F2)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 573
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

Yep, 17b can be flown in all 3 spans if you want to lug all those tips around! Maybe even 4 (13.5)....! I think that glider is just a 17b with a cap on the base wing?

JS1c is an awesome, proven machine for sure. Sorry on the ASH ;-).

Sean
  #15  
Old November 1st 13, 11:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
SoarerUno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

When clean, LAK goes like mothe..XXXXX. Beats V2 side by side on fast glide every time. Tried it dozens of times. Any rain or impurity, it suffers a lot and V2 climbs away as well as glides to sunset.
  #16  
Old November 4th 13, 10:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Claffey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

I flew beside the two Lak17Bs at Uvalde.
In my opinion the ASG29 (thanks Al) I flew was better.
I am not an Aeronautical engineer but to my eye the winglet and
winglet/wing interface just looked wrong. Dr Maughmer or others could
probably fix that.
A 21M version at the right wing loading would be possibly good per $ but
the
EB29 will eat it up in weak weather and the JS1 eat it up everywhere else.
IMO
Tom





t 21:35 20 October 2013, Sean F F2 wrote:
Damn right it will be! =20

I finished 5th overall in a lak17a (that's right, lak17"A"!) this year at
1=
8m nationals. I am a very average, inexperienced and essentially new
conte=
st pilot. I seemed to keep up with 29's pretty well. I imagine the 17b
(w=
ith its ability to to up to 1300 gross weight) will be far, FAR more
"even"=
with the 29 that the 17a is. The 17a was initially designed as a 15m

and
=
is therefore limited to 1103 gross weight max.

http://www.ssa.org/ContestResults.asp?

contestId=3D2224&ContestDetailId=3D72=
39&ContestName=3D18+Meter+Nationals

From what I have heard, the 17b is far more advanced than the 17a in
almost=
all key aspects. The wing is entirely redesigned as 15/18 and not just
15=
with 18 extensions as an afterthought as the 17a was... The airfoils

are
=
similar to the Diana 2. So I think it will do extremely well in 18 meter
c=
ompetition when in the hands of a strong pilot. =20

In 15 meter configuration, the 17a is very good, similar to an ASW 27
which=
it was designed to beat. The 17b is almost certainly better 15 meter
conf=
iguration that the 17a with an entirely new wing winglets, new airfoils,

a
=
redesigned vertical stab, rudder and all new horizontal stab. =20

In 21 meter I suspect it will be very good (60:1, similar to the JS1)
other=
wise why would they bother? Will it compete with a Quintus or a
Concordia?=
I highly doubt it, but it would be a hell of a glider for the $$$...

Sincerely,

Sean Fidler
F2, Lak17a #114


  #17  
Old November 4th 13, 10:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean F (F2)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 573
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

Tom,

With all due respect ;-), I believe the Lak17b's you flew against in Uvalde were Lak17b FES models (Front Engine Sustainer, http://lak.lt/index.php?option=com_c...&Itemi d=136).

The 17b FES has a folding propeller system on its nose which, even though fairly slick, still has a few square inches of square structure in the airflow as well as two 18' propeller blades. This is especially disruptive when at higher speeds in flying locations such as Uvalde Texas.

The FES version of the 17b should actually have a decent handicap for this reason, not a penalty over a pure glider as the US rules currently. The US handicap committee has not thought this one out very well in my opinion. The 17b FES should have a fairly decent handicap advantage over the pure version, not vice versa based purely on the gross weight.

The pure version of the 17b would produce a different story from you I imagine. I believe it would give a 29 a hell of a problem based on the way the Lak17a performs against them this year at the US Nationals, 5th place... (http://www.ssa.org/ContestResults.as...ter+Nationals).

Also the pilots flying the 17b's in Uvalde were, admittedly, not the "creme of the Uvalde crop." They were there to have fun mainly and to show off the new FES system. If you put two evenly matched pilots into a 29 and a pure 17b, I imagine it would come down to the pilot and not the glider. Not a bad thing considering the Lak17b is a far less expensive glider, even with the impressive FES system added.

Its all about fun, and arguing about glider performance for me is just that, fun. So don't take this too seriously. I think the Lak is not given a fair shake by many. It is a very nice glider for the money and worth serious consideration by those looking for a versatile 15/18 and now even a 21 meter glider which has the option to use FES.

Sean
F2


On Monday, November 4, 2013 5:00:38 AM UTC-5, Tom Claffey wrote:
I flew beside the two Lak17Bs at Uvalde.

In my opinion the ASG29 (thanks Al) I flew was better.

I am not an Aeronautical engineer but to my eye the winglet and

winglet/wing interface just looked wrong. Dr Maughmer or others could

probably fix that.

A 21M version at the right wing loading would be possibly good per $ but

the

EB29 will eat it up in weak weather and the JS1 eat it up everywhere else..

IMO

Tom











t 21:35 20 October 2013, Sean F F2 wrote:

Damn right it will be! =20




I finished 5th overall in a lak17a (that's right, lak17"A"!) this year at


1=


8m nationals. I am a very average, inexperienced and essentially new


conte=


st pilot. I seemed to keep up with 29's pretty well. I imagine the 17b


(w=


ith its ability to to up to 1300 gross weight) will be far, FAR more


"even"=


with the 29 that the 17a is. The 17a was initially designed as a 15m


and

=


is therefore limited to 1103 gross weight max.




http://www.ssa.org/ContestResults.asp?


contestId=3D2224&ContestDetailId=3D72=

39&ContestName=3D18+Meter+Nationals




From what I have heard, the 17b is far more advanced than the 17a in


almost=


all key aspects. The wing is entirely redesigned as 15/18 and not just


15=


with 18 extensions as an afterthought as the 17a was... The airfoils


are

=


similar to the Diana 2. So I think it will do extremely well in 18 meter


c=


ompetition when in the hands of a strong pilot. =20




In 15 meter configuration, the 17a is very good, similar to an ASW 27


which=


it was designed to beat. The 17b is almost certainly better 15 meter


conf=


iguration that the 17a with an entirely new wing winglets, new airfoils,


a

=


redesigned vertical stab, rudder and all new horizontal stab. =20




In 21 meter I suspect it will be very good (60:1, similar to the JS1)


other=


wise why would they bother? Will it compete with a Quintus or a


Concordia?=


I highly doubt it, but it would be a hell of a glider for the $$$...




Sincerely,




Sean Fidler


F2, Lak17a #114



  #18  
Old November 6th 13, 03:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Claffey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

If the price is right they would be a great glider - with or without FES.
Whether they would be competitive in an un-handicapped comp is another
issue. (The last 20% of price probably gives 1% of performance!)
Tom


At 22:34 04 November 2013, Sean F F2 wrote
Tom,

With all due respect ;-), I believe the Lak17b's you flew against in
Uvalde=
were Lak17b FES models (Front Engine Sustainer,
http://lak.lt/index.php?op=
tion=3Dcom_content&task=3Dview&id=3D23&Itemid=3D1 36). =20

The 17b FES has a folding propeller system on its nose which, even though
f=
airly slick, still has a few square inches of square structure in the
airfl=
ow as well as two 18' propeller blades. This is especially disruptive
when=
at higher speeds in flying locations such as Uvalde Texas.

The FES version of the 17b should actually have a decent handicap for

this
=
reason, not a penalty over a pure glider as the US rules currently. The
US=
handicap committee has not thought this one out very well in my opinion.


=
The 17b FES should have a fairly decent handicap advantage over the pure
ve=
rsion, not vice versa based purely on the gross weight.

The pure version of the 17b would produce a different story from you I
imag=
ine. I believe it would give a 29 a hell of a problem based on the way
the=
Lak17a performs against them this year at the US Nationals, 5th place...
(=
http://www.ssa.org/ContestResults.asp?

contestId=3D2224&ContestDetailId=3D72=
39&ContestName=3D18+Meter+Nationals).=20

Also the pilots flying the 17b's in Uvalde were, admittedly, not the
"creme=
of the Uvalde crop." They were there to have fun mainly and to show off
t=
he new FES system. If you put two evenly matched pilots into a 29 and a
pu=
re 17b, I imagine it would come down to the pilot and not the glider.

Not
=
a bad thing considering the Lak17b is a far less expensive glider, even
wit=
h the impressive FES system added.

Its all about fun, and arguing about glider performance for me is just
that=
, fun. So don't take this too seriously. I think the Lak is not given a
f=
air shake by many. It is a very nice glider for the money and worth
seriou=
s consideration by those looking for a versatile 15/18 and now even a 21
me=
ter glider which has the option to use FES.

Sean
F2=20


On Monday, November 4, 2013 5:00:38 AM UTC-5, Tom Claffey wrote:
I flew beside the two Lak17Bs at Uvalde.
=20
In my opinion the ASG29 (thanks Al) I flew was better.
=20
I am not an Aeronautical engineer but to my eye the winglet and=20
=20
winglet/wing interface just looked wrong. Dr Maughmer or others

could=20
=20
probably fix that.
=20
A 21M version at the right wing loading would be possibly good per $

but
=20
the=20
=20
EB29 will eat it up in weak weather and the JS1 eat it up everywhere

else=
..
=20
IMO
=20
Tom
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
t 21:35 20 October 2013, Sean F F2 wrote:
=20
Damn right it will be! =3D20

=20

=20
I finished 5th overall in a lak17a (that's right, lak17"A"!) this year

a=
t
=20
1=3D

=20
8m nationals. I am a very average, inexperienced and essentially new

=20
conte=3D

=20
st pilot. I seemed to keep up with 29's pretty well. I imagine the

17b
=20
(w=3D

=20
ith its ability to to up to 1300 gross weight) will be far, FAR more

=20
"even"=3D

=20
with the 29 that the 17a is. The 17a was initially designed as a 15m

=20
and
=20
=3D

=20
is therefore limited to 1103 gross weight max.

=20

=20
http://www.ssa.org/ContestResults.asp?

=20
contestId=3D3D2224&ContestDetailId=3D3D72=3D
=20
39&ContestName=3D3D18+Meter+Nationals

=20

=20
From what I have heard, the 17b is far more advanced than the 17a in

=20
almost=3D

=20
all key aspects. The wing is entirely redesigned as 15/18 and not

just
=20
15=3D

=20
with 18 extensions as an afterthought as the 17a was... The airfoils

=20
are
=20
=3D

=20
similar to the Diana 2. So I think it will do extremely well in 18

mete=
r
=20
c=3D

=20
ompetition when in the hands of a strong pilot. =3D20

=20

=20
In 15 meter configuration, the 17a is very good, similar to an ASW 27

=20
which=3D

=20
it was designed to beat. The 17b is almost certainly better 15 meter

=20
conf=3D

=20
iguration that the 17a with an entirely new wing winglets, new

airfoils,
=20
a
=20
=3D

=20
redesigned vertical stab, rudder and all new horizontal stab. =3D20

=20

=20
In 21 meter I suspect it will be very good (60:1, similar to the JS1)

=20
other=3D

=20
wise why would they bother? Will it compete with a Quintus or a

=20
Concordia?=3D

=20
I highly doubt it, but it would be a hell of a glider for the $$$...

=20

=20
Sincerely,

=20

=20
Sean Fidler

=20
F2, Lak17a #114

=20



  #19  
Old November 6th 13, 09:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 220
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 1:42:22 PM UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Yep, 17b can be flown in all 3 spans if you want to lug all those tips around! Maybe even 4 (13.5)....! I think that glider is just a 17b with a cap on the base wing?



Can I get a 13.5 meter option too? That would be awesome!
  #20  
Old November 6th 13, 02:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Leonard[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,028
Default 21m tipped Lak 17b!

On Monday, November 4, 2013 4:34:41 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
The 17b FES has a folding propeller system on its nose which, even though fairly slick, still has a few square inches of square structure in the airflow as well as two 18' propeller blades. This is especially disruptive when at higher speeds in flying locations such as Uvalde Texas. The FES version of the 17b should actually have a decent handicap for this reason, not a penalty over a pure glider as the US rules currently. The US handicap committee has not thought this one out very well in my opinion. The 17b FES should have a fairly decent handicap advantage over the pure version, not vice versa based purely on the gross weight.


I am not a direct player in the US Handicapping, but how would you explain this statement on the FES website:

"Idaflieg Flight performance testing of FES succesfully completed! It is confirmed that drag is like having installed bugwipers."

Link to report: http://idaflieg.wordpress.com/2012/0...rmessprojekte/

It won't impact me one way or the other, but maybe if you translated the article and showed them there is a small but measureable performce hit, they will adjust the HC of the FES version. Bug wipers not permitted in US Sports Class, of course.
 




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