tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...wiadomosc.html
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomos...wym_Targu.html

On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:
On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...Szybowiec_rozb...

I doubt we can learn anythng from it without knowing the circustances
of the crash. Did they spin in? Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? Something else?

The instructor should be sure the turn back can be accomplished safely
considering wind, altitude, and distance from the airport. In your
case it seems his judgement was ok.

Andy

On Jul 11, 3:01*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

I doubt we can learn anythng from it without knowing the circustances
of the crash. *Did they spin in? *Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? *Something else?

The instructor should be sure the turn back can be accomplished safely
considering wind, altitude, and distance from the airport. *In your
case it seems his judgement was ok.

Andy

When I was a student my instructor discussed rope breaks with me, then
demonstrated a 'rope break' at 200 feet. After the landing, we
discussed it some more. By the time he ever pulled the release on me,
I was well prepared to deal with it.

On Jul 11, 4:01*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

I doubt we can learn anythng from it without knowing the circustances
of the crash. *Did they spin in? *Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? *Something else?

The instructor should be sure the turn back can be accomplished safely
considering wind, altitude, and distance from the airport. *In your
case it seems his judgement was ok.

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

On Jul 11, 11:01*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jul 11, 4:01*pm, Andy wrote:









On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

I doubt we can learn anythng from it without knowing the circustances
of the crash. *Did they spin in? *Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? *Something else?

The instructor should be sure the turn back can be accomplished safely
considering wind, altitude, and distance from the airport. *In your
case it seems his judgement was ok.

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. *The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. *It's been reported that
it was gusty. *The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. *The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. *It's been reported that
it was gusty. *The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. 2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

On Jul 12, 11:10*am, Berry wrote:
Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Was about to post the same thing. Was pondering this very issue
whilst giving 2-32 rides for the local FBO this weekend. I don't
think I'd even contemplate a return to the runway from less than 300
feet in that bird at max gross unless we had TONS of extra
airspeed. As mentioned elswhere, there are so many variables to
this that each flight requires its own plan.

P3

On Jul 12, 9:10*am, Berry wrote:
Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Second hand unattributed report received that eye witnesses (no
comment on whether trained or untrained eyes) said the 2-32 appeared
to pitch nearly vertical after tow release, rolled 270 and went
straight in, so not what we'd normally envision. As the 2-32 has the
all flying stabilator, there are questions about the power of the trim.

*Did they spin in? *Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? *Something else?
Andy

Yes Andy, the article said that Puchacz was in a spin.
I think that from towing attitude quick push stick forward with wings
level into the headwind would get speed faster plus 10-20 mph before
starting 180 downwind turn, that would prevent the spin.
Starting 180 downwind turn with high nose attitude at the moment of
release from tow may cause a rapid loss of airspeed and spin. There is
no problem at higher altitude, there is a big problem at low altitude.
Puchacz has a momentum, demands respect or it will bite.
Some pilots survived collisions with ground in full spin, did not
survive when rotation was stopped close to the ground.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:38:10 -0700, rocketsientist001 wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz crashed
during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The instructor
(~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. It was a tow rope
brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind landing from
about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet). What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules? Can pilot request
opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight Review to avoid getting
killed?

Been there, done that - and in a Puchacz too. I was doing the usual
commentary for the instructor about fields ahead, etc as we climbed out.
As soon as we hit 400 ft and I was half-way through saying "400 ft -
should be high enough to get back to the field" there was a BANG as the
instructor pulled the release. I flew a steep, well-banked turn with the
nose low enough that if anything we gained a little speed (I knew/know
the Puchacz fairly well), flew the approach and landed without incident
downwind. There was never any question that we would get back or, with
the Puchacz' brakes, that we would get stopped on the ground.

I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

Sounds somewhat low to me, considering that was for practise, not for
real.


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