tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 12, 12:03*pm, Papa3 wrote:
On Jul 12, 11:10*am, Berry wrote:









Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Was about to post the same thing. * *Was pondering this very issue
whilst giving 2-32 rides for the local FBO this weekend. * *I don't
think I'd even contemplate a return to the runway from less than 300
feet in that bird at max gross unless we had TONS of extra
airspeed. * *As mentioned elswhere, there are so many variables to
this that each flight requires its own plan.

P3

Several years ago I had PTT at around 200ft while giving a ride in a
2-32. No problem making a smooth steep turn back and rolling back to
the start point. The old beast keeps energy well (it should!) so as
long as you don't waste time, and don't stall in the turn (you'll only
do that once down low in a 2-32...) it's not bad.

It helps to have smart tow pilots who tow nice and fast - there was
absolutely no need to lower the nose!

Do the math about turn rate vs sink rate - 200' is more a
psychological barrier. Practice in a sim helps here, since you can
play "what ifs" and see the results.

Best glider Schweizer ever made, IMO.

Kirk
66

On Jul 12, 12:41*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 11, 7:11*pm, Tony V wrote:

On 7/11/2011 10:05 PM, Tony V wrote:

Forgot point number 3. You can't just point the nose down and start your
turn back to the airport.
You have to wait until you have enough
airspeed to pull that off.

Why? *If the simulated break is made at normal tow speed there is
sufficient speed to start the turn immediately.

Andy

Better response that I teach is to promptly establish the required
gliding attitude, which will no doubt be somewhat mor noe low than
attitude on tow.
UH

On Jul 13, 7:21*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Jul 12, 12:03*pm, Papa3 wrote:









On Jul 12, 11:10*am, Berry wrote:

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Was about to post the same thing. * *Was pondering this very issue
whilst giving 2-32 rides for the local FBO this weekend. * *I don't
think I'd even contemplate a return to the runway from less than 300
feet in that bird at max gross unless we had TONS of extra
airspeed. * *As mentioned elswhere, there are so many variables to
this that each flight requires its own plan.

P3

Several years ago I had PTT at around 200ft while giving a ride in a
2-32. *No problem making a smooth steep turn back and rolling back to
the start point. *The old beast keeps energy well (it should!) so as
long as you don't waste time, and don't stall in the turn (you'll only
do that once down low in a 2-32...) it's not bad.

It helps to have smart tow pilots who tow nice and fast - there was
absolutely no need to lower the nose!

Do the math about turn rate vs sink rate - 200' is more a
psychological barrier. *Practice in a sim helps here, since you can
play "what ifs" and see the results.

Best glider Schweizer ever made, IMO.

Kirk
66

BTDT. IIRC the 2-32's front seat occupant was a Delta captain. At
~200 AGL it went like this... What's this gizmo do? Bang! Ooops!

On Jul 12, 9:10*am, Berry wrote:
Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Second hand unattributed report received that eye witnesses (no
comment on whether trained or untrained eyes) said the 2-32 appeared
to pitch nearly vertical after tow release, rolled 270 and went
straight in, so not what we'd normally envision. As the 2-32 has the
all flying stabilator, there are questions about the power of the trim.

On Jul 13, 11:37*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jul 12, 9:10*am, Berry wrote:









Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Second hand unattributed report received that eye witnesses (no
comment on whether trained or untrained eyes) said the 2-32 appeared
to pitch nearly vertical after tow release, rolled 270 and went
straight in, so not what we'd normally envision. *As the 2-32 has the
all flying stabilator, there are questions about the power of the trim.

If it's functioning correctly, the 2-32 trim is powerful, precise and
easy to use. However, like the rest of the glider, the trim system
needs regular servicing and lubrication. I've encountered some really
stiff 2-32 trim systems.

While I agree the 2-33 was the best glider Schweizer every built, they
are getting very old and need a lot of TLC.

While I agree the 2-33 was the best glider Schweizer every built, they
are getting very old and need a lot of TLC.

Bill! You do know that I'm going to save this and keep it for future
use In fact I might just get this quote printed and framed.

On Jul 13, 1:14*pm, Tony wrote:
While I agree the 2-33 was the best glider Schweizer every built, they
are getting very old and need a lot of TLC.

Bill! *You do know that I'm going to save this and keep it for future
use *In fact I might just get this quote printed and framed.

clearly he fat fingered the key board;^)

On Jul 13, 1:14*pm, Tony wrote:
While I agree the 2-33 was the best glider Schweizer every built, they
are getting very old and need a lot of TLC.

Bill! *You do know that I'm going to save this and keep it for future
use *In fact I might just get this quote printed and framed.

Damn, one little number...

On Jul 13, 11:37*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jul 12, 9:10*am, Berry wrote:









Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Second hand unattributed report received that eye witnesses (no
comment on whether trained or untrained eyes) said the 2-32 appeared
to pitch nearly vertical after tow release, rolled 270 and went
straight in, so not what we'd normally envision. *As the 2-32 has the
all flying stabilator, there are questions about the power of the trim.

http://www.flatheadnewsgroup.com/big...cc4c03286.html

" wrote:

On Jul 13, 3:01*am, Cats wrote:
On Jul 12, 3:11*am, Tony V wrote:
snip

Another point to consider, the faster the speed in a turn, the larger
the radius of turn......there may be some benefit to a slightly slower
turn (but not too slow).

Have you ever considered a steeply banked side slipping turn ?
You may have a high rate of descent, but the radius of turn is so
small that the duration is very short, making the height loss small,
and you do not need to increase airspeed to do it.


We know that angle of attack is the concern in stall avoidance....any
stall spin accident off of low rope break has to have had too much
angle of attack, one way or another....This means too much stick back
pressure....This is why I like to see an obvious stick forward and
nose pitch down reaction upon rope break.....also smooth control
inputs....

Gilbert