Beginner, Parachutes?

Well, then it sounds like I should buy a parachute after I solo!

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:51:50 -0800 (PST), wrote:
[snip]
chute and never have a problem. I think part of the (psychological)
problem that I have is that the Cherokee is so quiet I can HEAR other
airplanes before I can see them.

I'll see your "hear other airplanes" and raise you one...I've heard a
GLIDER from a glider. Right after I heard its towplane. NMAC's don't
get any more N than that one...

rj

On Nov 20, 7:57*am, vic20owner wrote:
Dumb beginner question follows:

I am just starting out flying gliders.... * Here in the USA it seems
nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
aerobatics. *However, I generally do like knowing that I have a backup
plan and a parachute seems reasonable. *I suppose a history of cave
diving has made me sensitive to accident possibilities. *I realize
flying is very safe but gliders tend to fly in circles near each
other.

Would it be premature to buy and wear a parachute while still taking
lessons, or would I quickly become the club's private joke?

thanks

As most pilots come to injury or grief in the landing phase where a
parachute is not a factor, use during training with an instructor is
generally not a factor. Use during competitions and aerobatics does
reflect on the somewhat increased risk associated with types of
flying. That doesn't mean that the rare event where a parachute made
a difference doesn't occur. As mentioned, use by a single person in a
two-seater is generally bad form unless perhaps strapped to a
lightweight person for ballasting purposes. One club took the
position that all training flights would use parachutes and that
policy was fortuitous for the instructor and student when their glider
was hit by a lightning bolt that struck five miles from the cloud,
causing the glider to 'explode'. However, there have been many more
accidents caused at altitudes below parachute effectiveness through
failure to fly the aircraft when finding the canopy unlatched.
Several injuries and fatals have resulted from spins during training
flights, just to compare risks. A German study once concluded that
survival in an incident requiring parachute use below 600m agl was
very low. That said, some emergency chutes are very effective at low
altitudes with good horizontal speed. Not long ago there was a mid-
air between a glider and a jet, the glider pilot survived using his
chute. Several years ago there was a mid-air in the same region, that
pilot was not wearing a chute, but managed to limp back to the the
airport with a fuselage that was nearly severed by the impact. This
past summer there was a mid-air during a competition in the US where
one of the pilots successfully hit the silk and the other was able to
fly back to a safe landings. Note it was during competition, one of
the increased risk scenarios. Several years ago a pilot with a folded
up wing rode his glider into the trees in Florida. Most of these are
rare happenings.

I normally don't wear a chute in the club two-seaters, but I do wear
one in my own gliders. I'm unlikely to use one unless I know the
primary structure has failed. Even then, I have to consider the
outcomes. I bought one of these while flying in the UK http://tinyurl.com/64btg9
Why? Because it's a comfortable chair type chute and my first choice
was several months backordered http://tinyurl.com/55t3fz and I didn't
wish to wait. At the time they were separate companies. Look at the
performance differences. As I fly in the US west mostly, my current
chute is unlikely to allow a landing without injury over the
elevations where we fly. The EB80 is quite a bit different in pack
and performance and will probably be my choice for a replacement one
of these days. About 30 years ago, a pilot doing a high speed pass in
an Open Cirrus VTC fluttered it to pieces. He departed the glider at
about 100ft at 100kts and landed safely in his EB80. No interest in
the company, but a fondness for this rig. I wore one for three years
of flying an SHK. Other pilots will have an appreciation for chutes
that have served them well. A little history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_Club

Frank Whiteley

On Nov 20, 10:02*am, vic20owner wrote:
Well, then it sounds like I should buy a parachute after I solo!

Actually, since it sounds like you plan on sticking with soaring
(great to hear!) and want a chute, it is never too early to begin
getting used to the care/feeding/operation of a potential critical
life saving device. Buy a chute now and wear it proudly. It makes a
lot more sense to take up the empty space between you and the seatback
with a chute than with crusty club cushions or dirty laundry! I
recommend a Softie as they are very comfortable and have the slowest
decent rate per canopy diameter.

I bought a National for my first chute since I figured I would get
the cheapest chute I could lacking information otherwise. My National
is NOT comfortable on longer flights and never really 'broke in' and
got any better. It also has the highest decent rate/canopy diameter
since it has the least amount of panels/risers which makes the
deployed canopy draw tighter, into smaller diameter and thus be less
effective (in addition to using more porous fabric). A lot of people
swear by Strong chutes, and their track record shows they do indeed
work. I find them overly bulky myself, and (supposedly...) the design
has not been updated since it's inception, despite many material and
technique advances in the industry. There are others of course too,
but those are the 'big three' available at most US glider related
outlets. Any is better than none, as there are more members of the
'caterpiller club' here than we would like to think.

-Paul

On Nov 20, 10:59*am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Bottom-line: Wearing a parachute is a personal choice (in the USA); so
if others choose not to wear one, that's their perogative. You should
feel free to do what you feel is best and safest - not what will make
you popular or fashionable around others. If your club members
ridicule you for trying to be safe, then it's the wrong club to be
associated with!

Take care,

--Noel

You might enjoy this thread
http://tinyurl.com/5coak4

not a dumb question at all!
having already bailed out of one glider and successfully survived the ordeal
I find it very uncomfortable to fly without one...in fact for many years
found it uncomfortable to even fly with one!..
at the time, I too was in a club that quite frankly didn't use parachutes,
some there even made some remarks because I did...but none the less, almost
all gliders are designed for parachutes to be used in them, most flight
manuals calculated weight and balance takes this into account and requires
you to either wear a parachute or add cushions to put you in the same
position...makes little sense to have cushions behind you when the wings
come apart!
If you continue to fly gliders and progress to more sophisticated singe seat
designs you'll want a parachute anyway....they are actually quite
comfortable.....and comforting to have there...
also a bigger parts of wearing a parachute is knowing how to use it.....read
the manual, go through the motions.....or even get with a sport parachuting
club or operation and get an hours worth of instruction on how to use it and
avoid common mistakes..Emergency parachutes are designed to work even when
you do things terribly wrong with them, that's what sets them apart from
sport skydiving parachutes, but you can enhance your safety and willingness
to actually use one without hesitation if the case ever comes up..
"I'd rather be down here wishing I was up there than up there wishing I was
down here"
best of luck!
Tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"vic20owner" wrote in message
...
Dumb beginner question follows:

I am just starting out flying gliders.... Here in the USA it seems
nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
aerobatics. However, I generally do like knowing that I have a backup
plan and a parachute seems reasonable. I suppose a history of cave
diving has made me sensitive to accident possibilities. I realize
flying is very safe but gliders tend to fly in circles near each
other.

Would it be premature to buy and wear a parachute while still taking
lessons, or would I quickly become the club's private joke?

thanks

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:48:20 -0800 (PST), Frank Whiteley
wrote:

On Nov 20, 10:59*am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Bottom-line: Wearing a parachute is a personal choice (in the USA); so
if others choose not to wear one, that's their perogative. You should
feel free to do what you feel is best and safest - not what will make
you popular or fashionable around others. If your club members
ridicule you for trying to be safe, then it's the wrong club to be
associated with!

Take care,

--Noel

You might enjoy this thread
http://tinyurl.com/5coak4

Reminds me of the controversy some years back when the FAA ordered jet
warbird owners to disable their ejection seats...

rj

Regardless of what kind of flight I'm taking in a glider of any type,
I feel naked and insecure without a parachute on. This is based on the
reports of inflight collisions I've read (e.g. the Hawker/ASG29 near
Minden), and my own experience as a rookie x/c pilot when I carelessly
got sucked into a CU. Fortunately I didn't break the glider but like
Andy's experience at that first turnpoint, it left a lasting
impression.

~ted/2NO

ps full disclosure -- I'm also biased by a previous life as a
skydiver; jumpers are nervous getting in any small aircraft without a
rig on.

Quick follow-up: My club is based at the same airport as the guys
that make Softie Parachutes. Most of the folks here love 'em (we have
6 chutes just for use in the club fleet, plus a lot of guys who own
their glider and fly with a Softie). They're not the cheapest, but
they're comfortable and effective. Sometimes they sell used chutes on
consignment for a good price.

Some of the IAC folks in my area love the folks at Silver Parachutes,
and certainly other brands work fine. If you have access to a few
parachutes, try them on and adjust the straps and see how they feel
(preferrably in a seating position like you would be in a glider) -
there's no substitute for hands-on review before deciding on which
type to buy.

Take care,

--Noel

vic20owner wrote:
Dumb beginner question follows:

I am just starting out flying gliders.... Here in the USA it seems
nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
aerobatics. However, I generally do like knowing that I have a backup
plan and a parachute seems reasonable. I suppose a history of cave
diving has made me sensitive to accident possibilities. I realize
flying is very safe but gliders tend to fly in circles near each
other.

Would it be premature to buy and wear a parachute while still taking
lessons, or would I quickly become the club's private joke?

thanks
Man - only on the internet could I 'discover' a thread ~24 hours after
it started, and find it was old/over on the same day! Anyhow...

"What everyone else has already said."

'Way back when' when my instructor kicked me out of the 2-33 we'd been
flying to the club's 1-26, he added (in what seemed to me, then, almost
an afterthought), "Go grab a parachute for the flight."

"Why?" asks I. "We haven't been using them on our flights."

"I can't fit in the back of a 2-33 with a 'chute, and you don't get one
if I don't get one. Trust me...wear a 'chute any time you can."

That last bit made sense then. Still does today. A few years later, my
personal 'chute was in for a repack, so I flew my
(supine-piloting-position) HP-14 resting atop 4" of foam. It
simultaneously: was terrifying; felt akin to (I imagine!) being naked
before the Pope; provided much food for contemplation of the U.S. FAA's
'curious wisdom' regarding emergency 'chute accessibility to the PIC vs.
violating then-applicable 'chute FARs.

Of course my view may have been biased by being a 1-time user of the
same 'chute...

Regards,
Bob - likes to listen to those little voices in his head - W.

P.S. As already noted, you'd be rather irked with yourself - for a
while, anyway - if you needed a 'chute and had opted to fly without it.