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#1
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
I was listening to LiveATC.net's feed of Syracuse, NY, yesterday (Sunday)
during the approach of a large thunderstorm line that was moving towards the airport from the south. At one point a VFR a Cessna 172, approaching the airport from the west, checked in stating his intention to land at SYR. As the C172 progressed, the controller called the pilot to report that the aircraft was eight miles from and heading directly towards a line of extreme weather. The pilot responded in a somewhat unappreciative tone that he was "painting" it. The controller responded with a rather surprised, "Roger." Moments later the controller again called to warn the pilot of extreme weather at his twelve o'clock. The pilot then replied in what sounded like an annoyed tone that he was "picking our way through the weather using our XM." Again, the controller replied with a surprised "Roger." With a quiet moment on the frequency, the controller called the pilot a third time to ask him to explain what XM meant. The pilot described the concept of XM NEXRAD on his Garmin 396, but then added that the refresh rate allowed him to see heavy weather on the 398 from 2 to 8 minutes old. When I heard that the refresh rate was up to 8 minutes old, I cringed to think that this pilot (this one didn't sound like an experienced freight dog to me, but maybe I was wrong) was picking his way through a field of thunderstorms on a day where returns went from light to extreme in less than ten minutes. Granted that the pilot was VFR so presumably he was seeing and avoiding using the outside picture primarily. But this day it was a typical northeast US hazy and humid day with visibility around the 6 to 8 mile range, so having the Garmin 396 for strategic avoidance was a good thing. It still made me sweat from the comfort of my office chair to imagine that this pilot was flying through the weather line using up to 8 minute old data (not even considering the NEXRAD delay before the picture is uplinked to the XM satellites) and declining the more real-time weather guidance offered by ATC (SYR approach has excellent weather radar). Eventually a thunderstorm cell erupted right over the airport, resulting in numerous wind shear alerts and at least one microburst alert, so the pilot called approach to state his intention of diverting southeast towards an airport 50 nm south of SYR to wait out the weather. -- Peter |
#2
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
"Peter R." wrote in message
... I was listening to LiveATC.net's feed of Syracuse, NY, yesterday (Sunday) during the approach of a large thunderstorm line that was moving towards the airport from the south. At one point a VFR a Cessna 172, approaching the airport from the west, checked in stating his intention to land at SYR. As the C172 progressed, the controller called the pilot to report that the aircraft was eight miles from and heading directly towards a line of extreme weather. The pilot responded in a somewhat unappreciative tone that he was "painting" it. [snip] The more I fly, the more I believe that the body of pilots that regularly do things that most will consider "stupid pilot tricks" is larger than what many people think. The odds are that this guy will get away with this multiple times before he gets bit. Of course there's also a small chance that he may never get bit hard enough to scare or kill himself. I bet if there was a reliable way to find the number of pilots who have or do fly in the clouds while "VFR," it would be eye-opening. Marco |
#3
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
The more I fly, the more I believe that the body of pilots that regularly do
things that most will consider "stupid pilot tricks" is larger than what many people think. The odds are that this guy will get away with this multiple times before he gets bit. Of course there's also a small chance that he may never get bit hard enough to scare or kill himself. While what you say is true, it really depends on the type of thunderstorms Peter is describing. (And I don't mean to imply that his observations were inaccurate in any way.) In the Midwest, in summer, it's common for afternoon thunderstorms to develop. Sometimes these are in a line (associated with a front), but many times they are similar to Florida "pop-up" thunderstorms, in that they build in place. We call them "popcorn storms". Penetrating a line of storms associated with a front is dicey at best, even with a 396/496. Flying *around* "popcorn" thunderstorms, however, can be perfectly safe, given decent visibility. It's even doable without XM in the plane, but the satellite data in the cockpit makes it MUCH less stressful, mostly because you can tell where the storms are building, and where they are subsiding. This gives you an important strategic leg up on the situation that makes it truly easy to stay out of trouble. When you can see a towering cumulus cloud building into a 35,000 foot monster over *there* -- but it's perfectly clear over *here* -- it's pretty easy to circumnavigate the problem, and steer a wide berth away from any potential wind shear, precipitation, or bad visibility. This is especially true in the "big sky" Midwest, where there is little terrain to block your view to the horizon. Add the XM satellite data to that visual information, and you've got a perfectly doable situation -- given the "right" kind of storms. (It helps to be a student of weather, in order to discern the difference -- but the differences are pretty obvious, once you know what to look for...) I bet if there was a reliable way to find the number of pilots who have or do fly in the clouds while "VFR," it would be eye-opening. I don't know any VFR pilots who would voluntarily fly into clouds. I'm sure they exist, but I think modern flight instructors have very thoroughly indoctrinated their students with the dangers of instrument flight without proper instruction. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#4
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
On Jun 4, 11:21 am, "Peter R." wrote:
I was listening to LiveATC.net's feed of Syracuse, NY, yesterday (Sunday) during the approach of a large thunderstorm line that was moving towards the airport from the south. At one point a VFR a Cessna 172, approaching the airport from the west, checked in stating his intention to land at SYR. As the C172 progressed, the controller called the pilot to report that the aircraft was eight miles from and heading directly towards a line of extreme weather. The pilot responded in a somewhat unappreciative tone that he was "painting" it. The controller responded with a rather surprised, "Roger." Moments later the controller again called to warn the pilot of extreme weather at his twelve o'clock. The pilot then replied in what sounded like an annoyed tone that he was "picking our way through the weather using our XM." Again, the controller replied with a surprised "Roger." With a quiet moment on the frequency, the controller called the pilot a third time to ask him to explain what XM meant. The pilot described the concept of XM NEXRAD on his Garmin 396, but then added that the refresh rate allowed him to see heavy weather on the 398 from 2 to 8 minutes old. When I heard that the refresh rate was up to 8 minutes old, I cringed to think that this pilot (this one didn't sound like an experienced freight dog to me, but maybe I was wrong) was picking his way through a field of thunderstorms on a day where returns went from light to extreme in less than ten minutes. Granted that the pilot was VFR so presumably he was seeing and avoiding using the outside picture primarily. But this day it was a typical northeast US hazy and humid day with visibility around the 6 to 8 mile range, so having the Garmin 396 for strategic avoidance was a good thing. It still made me sweat from the comfort of my office chair to imagine that this pilot was flying through the weather line using up to 8 minute old data (not even considering the NEXRAD delay before the picture is uplinked to the XM satellites) and declining the more real-time weather guidance offered by ATC (SYR approach has excellent weather radar). Eventually a thunderstorm cell erupted right over the airport, resulting in numerous wind shear alerts and at least one microburst alert, so the pilot called approach to state his intention of diverting southeast towards an airport 50 nm south of SYR to wait out the weather. -- Peter Hello: Eventually we are going to see/read about a pretty "fantastic" accident with this kind of flying. I've done a reasonable amount of "line" running in everything from Boeings to TriChamps (although the latter is much more entertaining since the speed of advance of the thurderstoms and airplane are closley matched!) with a fairly wide range of equipment (Radar to STorm Scopes to the XM). MOST of it was perfectly safe, there were one or two times a few years ago that I had some "unpleasantries" occur that were fortunatly learning lessons... But just from the blow by blow you give this pilot strikes me as not being very clear about what he/she was doing. As you make clear, the big deal with the XM is the delay...and in a cell/cells where "training" is taking place that delay can be deadly. What is fairly scary (at least to me) is that the pilot did not seem to understand the limitations of his equipment and/or the advantages/ limitations of the ATC radar. If Syracuse has an ASR11/12 then they have pretty good wx information. It isnt Nexrad but it is certianly better and more real time then what the XM is showing. Visually you can spot the "training" and this guy was VFR so that showed some smarts...but it is not a far leap to when someone is doing this IFR and finds that the "red" has moved to right where they are...and the airplane they are flying is now testing the limits of structural integrity. the problem with all this new instrumentation is the same as pilots found when they moved from the classic 737 into the EFIS versions (or into complete EFIS airplanes)...the training was not up to the standards of the equipment and people got into severe trouble. I think that your instincts are pretty good here. Robert |
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:21:35 -0400, "Peter R."
wrote in : [Story of cluelessly inept pilot narrowly escaping disaster snipped] Did you happen to note the aircraft's N number? Someone should relate this incident to the appropriate FSDO office before the tapes are wiped, so that the pilot can benefit from some badly needed remedial WX training before his bumbling casts yet more negative public opinion on GA, and saddens his friends and family. |
#6
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
On Jun 4, 10:10 am, Jay Honeck wrote:
The more I fly, the more I believe that the body of pilots that regularly do things that most will consider "stupid pilot tricks" is larger than what many people think. The odds are that this guy will get away with this multiple times before he gets bit. Of course there's also a small chance that he may never get bit hard enough to scare or kill himself. While what you say is true, it really depends on the type of thunderstorms Peter is describing. (And I don't mean to imply that his observations were inaccurate in any way.) In the SW summer TS's are frequent but usually easily circumnavigatable VFR. I would never attempt to try IFR in that type of weather, if you get in IMC you're probably going into a TS. VFR is the way to go. |
#7
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
On 6/4/2007 1:30:51 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
Did you happen to note the aircraft's N number? Someone should relate this incident to the appropriate FSDO office before the tapes are wiped, Not only do I have the tail-id but I also have the exact exchange, thanks to LiveATC.net's 40-day archive. However, Larry, I am not going to be the one to report anyone, since IMO this is quite a gray area. I personally have a very different take on reporting pilots to the FAA. For education purposes, though, I thought it might be beneficial to retrieve and edit the archive files into a short clip (and also removing the majority of the tail ID so the resulting clip cannot be used against the pilot) with the relevant content. When I have the clip, I will post it to a file sharing site and the link to this thread. -- Peter |
#8
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
"Peter R." wrote in message
... However, Larry, I am not going to be the one to report anyone, since IMO this is quite a gray area. I personally have a very different take on reporting pilots to the FAA. How about filing a NASA form? Isn't that exactly what they were designed for? |
#9
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
Just had a simliar experience today flying into PDX (portland, OR).
The onboard radar demonstrated some clear spots through heavy precip (no electrical activity on Stormscope), while the Nexrad (which is delayed) showed no path through. Nexrad is great for the far away strategic planning, but is poor at tactical planning up close, due to the delay. For this, onboard radar is the only way to go. Either way, trying this at night makes it even a lot harder. "Larry Dighera" wrote in message ... On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:21:35 -0400, "Peter R." wrote in : [Story of cluelessly inept pilot narrowly escaping disaster snipped] Did you happen to note the aircraft's N number? Someone should relate this incident to the appropriate FSDO office before the tapes are wiped, so that the pilot can benefit from some badly needed remedial WX training before his bumbling casts yet more negative public opinion on GA, and saddens his friends and family. |
#10
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VFR "picking his way thru" heavy cells with XM Radio weather
On 6/4/2007 1:10:07 PM, Jay Honeck wrote:
While what you say is true, it really depends on the type of thunderstorms Peter is describing. (And I don't mean to imply that his observations were inaccurate in any way.) Jay, here is a radar image that was taken about 10 minutes before the pilot checked on. I have indicated cell movement using red arrows and the pilot's approximate course using the yellow arrow: http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z...un-03-2007.jpg The cells were closer to Syracuse airport when the exchange took place. As you can see, this is not a field of pop-corn cells. -- Peter |
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