Big News -- WAAS GPS is Operational for IFR

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...

You continue to talk about GPS as if there were one GPS satellite up
there.
There are not, and the system is backed up now by WAAS and soon LAAS. In
fact,

It is one frequency. More specifically, it takes one black box to jam all
GPS satellite reception in a given area. Then I am left with nothing.

If there is as much redundancy as you say, then why do we need RAIM?




--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...

More like free. Just look in the dumpster behind any avionics shop.

Laugh all you want.

I would without a second thought take a panel today with a Garmin 530 / M1
Loran combo over a Garmin 530/530 combo... The GPS/Loran combo has more
redundancy.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
...

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...

You continue to talk about GPS as if there were one GPS satellite up
there.
There are not, and the system is backed up now by WAAS and soon LAAS. In
fact,

It is one frequency. More specifically, it takes one black box to jam all
GPS satellite reception in a given area. Then I am left with nothing.

If there is as much redundancy as you say, then why do we need RAIM?


And we saw how effective jammers were in Desert Storm II. The GPS guided
munitions seemed to have no problem destroying them.

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...
Richard Kaplan wrote:

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...

That leaves "us" with about the clout of a sparrow on bad berries. Oh,
and
I won't
be joining you, nor I suspect will many other pilots. Four course
ranges
didn't
survive as VOR backups, either.

That is because the NDB and ILS systems were around when the four course
ranges went out.

I don't care what the backup is -- NDB, Loran, Transponder Landing
System,
ILS -- there just has to be some backup available within reasonable
range
anywhere in the U.S. if the GPS system should go completely down.

Certainly possible !

1. Terrorists jam GPS from the moon. Entire side of earth placed out of
service,
and impossible to take out jammer.

2. Terrorists get ahold of 24 (count em !) anti-statellite missles.

3. Terrorists launch massive numbers of balloon based jammers.

4. GE ships the "micromatic" oven that just happens to work on the GPS
frequency. The goverment promptly declares GE to be a terrorist
organization,
and invades it.

Well, that was fun but --

You continue to talk about GPS as if there were one GPS satellite up
there.
There are not, and the system is backed up now by WAAS and soon LAAS. In
fact,
it will probally make more sense economically to place backup ground based
GPS "pseudo-satellites" than to maintain the klunky VOR system
indefiniately
(which by the way is a pretty close description to what LAAS is).

At that point LAAS will be at CAT IIb, scheduled for 2004 comissioning.
Participation in LAAS may require a VDL radio.

The government does not have to maintain every museum peice system out
there
just to make old guys feel better. And history says they won't. Not for
long.

About 2010 cheap clocks, accurate enough to provide solution for any
satellite constellation time stream should become available; with the L5 GPS
signal comming on line in about 2012. (0.2 meter accuracy 2 D position)

John P. Tarver, MS/PE

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article , "Gig Giacona"
wrote:

And we saw how effective jammers were in Desert Storm II. The GPS guided
munitions seemed to have no problem destroying them.

are you saying that the civilian GPS receivers have the same
capabilities as mil gps receivers?

There is already a study under way to make the JDAM style FOG available to
GA. At 7 years a regulatory cycle, these could be available by 2010, as
well. How long do you need to hold solution to get on the ground?

Richard Kaplan wrote:

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...

More like free. Just look in the dumpster behind any avionics shop.

Laugh all you want.

I would without a second thought take a panel today with a Garmin 530 / M1
Loran combo over a Garmin 530/530 combo... The GPS/Loran combo has more
redundancy.


I had a loran when I got the airplane. I found out they wanted full rate for
data, just to get lat and lon in nice glowing amber numbers.

Into the dumpster it went. Bet I am not the only one.

--
For most men, true happiness can only be achieved with a woman.
Also for most men, true happiness can only be achieved without a woman.
Sharp minds have noted that these two rules tend to conflict.....

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...

I had a loran when I got the airplane. I found out they wanted full rate
for
data, just to get lat and lon in nice glowing amber numbers.

I am not sure I follow you here.

In any event, the reliability of Loran is certainly dependent on the
installation. Static wicks help out significantly among other installation
factors.

On my airplane, if I covered up the word "Loran" on my M1 and told you it
were an enroute GPS, you would not notice the difference between its
performance vs. that of a GPS. Again, I would any day choose a Garmin 530
/M1 Loran stack over a dual Gamin 530 stack. I think many pilots have bad
impressions of Loran either because they have used non-user-friendly Loran
systems which required maual entry of Lat/Lon data or else because they have
experienced a poorly installed and thus unreliable Loran system. I cannot
recall any pilot who has ever flown my plane and come away with a less than
positive impression of the M1 Loran.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Barry" wrote in message
...
At that point LAAS will be at CAT IIb, scheduled for 2004 comissioning.

The current schedule for LAAS is to commission the first CAT I units in
late
2006, contingent on a decision late in 2004 to proceed with development
and
production:

http://www2.faa.gov/index.cfm/apa/1062?id=1737

I don't think there's a schedule yet for CAT II/III.

I was working off an old schedule. Honeywell already has LAAS playing in
Oz.

"Peter" wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote

There is already a study under way to make the JDAM style FOG available
to
GA. At 7 years a regulatory cycle, these could be available by 2010, as
well. How long do you need to hold solution to get on the ground?

It would be great but they are quite expensive, even on the scale of
silly avionics pricing. And using INS only gives you a partial
improvement; you've got to do some serious signal processing to really
improve things, and that technology isn't going to make it out of the
military sphere for as long as they can hang onto it.

The technology is alreadfy being offered by the military, just like the
military has offered civil aviation the GPS p-codes. The people saying "no"
are our own civil aviation regulators.

John P. Tarver, MS//PE

Richard Kaplan wrote:

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...

I had a loran when I got the airplane. I found out they wanted full rate
for
data, just to get lat and lon in nice glowing amber numbers.

I am not sure I follow you here.

They wanted the full price for a data subscription for the Loran unit. A considerable
amount of the cost of ANY system is the data for it. To pay full rate for a data
subscription on a unit that is inaccurate, unreliable and only gives latitude and
longitude was and is insane.

--
For most men, true happiness can only be achieved with a woman.
Also for most men, true happiness can only be achieved without a woman.
Sharp minds have noted that these two rules tend to conflict.....