If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Bill Daniels wrote:
BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch experience jumping in here? I can't speak for others, but I read this thread, shaked my head and simply didn't feel like commenting. Seldom I have seen a discussion which showed so clearly plain ignorance. In a word: If done correctly, winch launching is safe, cheap and fun. It is certainly much (much!) cheaper than aero-tow. It is certainly much more fun. And it's easier, too. The only dangerous moment for the pilot is at the very beginning of the pull. It is very very very important not to pull too early or too briskly. Stalling the glider at this altitude is lethal. Once established in the climb, make sure you have always enough speed to pull over if the rope breaks. Everything else is very easy and very safe. There *are* rope breaks, but they are very much a non-event. Either you have enough room to land straight, or you have enough altitude to do a 180 or a short circuit. Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person show you safe procedures. Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years. Stefan |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Bill Daniels wrote:
BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch experience jumping in here? I can't speak for others, but I read this thread, shaked my head and simply didn't feel like commenting. Seldom I have seen a discussion which showed so clearly plain ignorance. In a word: If done correctly, winch launching is safe, cheap and fun. It is certainly much (much!) cheaper than aero-tow. It is certainly much more fun. And it's easier, too. The only dangerous moment for the pilot is at the very beginning of the pull. It is very very very important not to pull too early or too briskly. Stalling the glider at this altitude is lethal. Once established in the climb, make sure you have always enough speed to push over if the rope breaks. Everything else is very easy and very safe. There *are* rope breaks, but they are very much a non-event. Either you have enough room to land straight, or you have enough altitude to do a 180 or a short circuit. Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person show you safe procedures. Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years. Stefan |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
"Stefan" wrote in message ... Bill Daniels wrote: BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch experience jumping in here? I can't speak for others, but I read this thread, shaked my head and simply didn't feel like commenting. Seldom I have seen a discussion which showed so clearly plain ignorance. In a word: If done correctly, winch launching is safe, cheap and fun. It is certainly much (much!) cheaper than aero-tow. It is certainly much more fun. And it's easier, too. The only dangerous moment for the pilot is at the very beginning of the pull. It is very very very important not to pull too early or too briskly. Stalling the glider at this altitude is lethal. Once established in the climb, make sure you have always enough speed to pull over if the rope breaks. Everything else is very easy and very safe. There *are* rope breaks, but they are very much a non-event. Either you have enough room to land straight, or you have enough altitude to do a 180 or a short circuit. Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person show you safe procedures. Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years. Stefan Thanks, Stefan, we need to hear more of this sort of thing. Bill Daniels |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
JJ -
I, as a power pilot, learned to fly sailplanes on the winch, overseas. I now only fly aerotow, and am not signed off for ground launch. One thing I have not seen mentioned is the qualification of winch operators. Tow plane pilots ( I'm not one) have to meet certain standards and be signed off. I became a winch operator by volunteering out of club spirit (stupidty?). I was informally instructed by a winch operator who desparately wanted to escape the exile of the winch. Then I was left to do the job, getting my flights at the end of the day. They brought me food and drink (nonalcholic), but no one "qualified" on the winch would come near for hours. I'm sure I never endangered any aircraft or pilot, but I'm also sure that some achieved less than optimal release altitude. There was no tensionmeter, and throttle control was based on visual evaluation of aircraft attitude and cable sag. Many years later I had the chance to observe the operator of a modern six-reel winch at Terlet. He was an artist at work, and he had the best equipment. I think winch launches are safe, as long as you have a cg hook. But, in any comparison to aerotow, the increased number of launches necessary to achieve sustained flight must be taken into account. Ed Grens |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message ink.net... | A bunch of guys, (it's usually guys) get together and decide to winch launch | gliders. ("How hard can it be?" "We can teach ourselves...") They start | with poor equipment, a bad site, no experience or training and proceed to | scare themselves badly...or worse. | | They then decide that the problem is winch launch (It doesn't work, low | releases, lots of hassles, etc..) and then go back to air tow. | | I've flown tugs and driven winches - I'll take winches for fun. I've flown | lots of air tow and been scared on plenty of occasions. I've flown lots of | winch launches and rarely had one go wrong. If anybody wants a winch | experienced CFI-G for a week of winch training, email me. I might be | available. | | BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch | experience jumping in here? Not from UK or Europe, but Australia: There are a number of clubs, ours included that usually launch by winch. In Oz, all gliding is controlled by The Gliding Federation of Australia, under a delegation from CASA (the Aussie FAA) GFA has a regulation setting the minimum length of field for winch launching to 1200 metres (approx 4000 ft). This is to avoid the possibility of a "non-manoeuvring" area, where, if the cable breaks, there is insufficient length to land straight ahead, and not high enough to do a modified circuit and land normally. There are standard procedures which are taught, involving signals between the pilot and the winch driver, and procedure for dealing with cable breaks. These are taught and practiced during the winch launch training. There is an agreed minimum number of launches (12) before sign-off for anyone converting from aerotow. Provided you have a good winch, with sufficient power, and an experienced driver, it is a very safe and efficient way to get into the air. It is also quiet, which is a boon for those fields close to built-up areas. Cheers, John G. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message ... If you want gliding to be popular aerotow involves less running around on the ground per flight hour. A cable retrieve winch such as the one in use at the Long Mynd in the UK makes a winch operation even slicker than aerotowing! Ian |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
A good place for statistics is:
http://www.esgc.co.uk/BGAdata.htm Search and study the reports. There is much written between the lines. If you look at the number of accidents where the launch was originally a winch launch you will find that a lot of accidents occur soon after the launch is completed and are attributed to other factors but which would really not have happened if they had aerotowed. (Rigging errors not found in the speed of the launch, not watching airspeed and spinning after the launch because of distraction with the high workload of the winch and not dealing with the angle of attack in the launch properly and so on). It is not possible to give clear cut statistics without a significant degree of human interpretation and you will really need to make your own mind up. I am certain winching is a lot more dangerous. There are more things that can go wrong and if they can go wrong, they will given time. "Gary Boggs" wrote in message ... I like all these points and I suspect that because of the short time required in a winch launch, and the faster acceleration, and the fact that you are in a position to land on the runway that you are using at all times, the winch launch would be safer, but I still see no statistics! Come on folks, someone surly has crunched the numbers. Training is crucial in both, but what I'm looking for is numbers, I have plenty of opinions myself. Boggs |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
... Here's an interesting point of reference: Proper pilot life-saving reaction to winch line breaks, op inattention, winch engine failure, or op incapacitation is routinely taught in ground launch training. How many airtow instructors pull the release on their student at 200 ft over the outbound fence? Just once? Several times? BJ Gary Boggs wrote: Someone must have already compared the safety of these tow launch methods. What do the statistics show is the safer method of launch? Aero tow seems to involve more inherent dangers to me. For one thing, there is just more time for things to go wrong. What could be more dangerous than to tie tow airplanes together and try to fly? Gary Boggs Bob; Right, I thik this is really imprtant. On tow, at 200 ft over the far-boundary you need the confidence to know the right thing to do and do it straight away while retaing air-speed. On tows we take of saying to oursevles 'land-ahead if it breaks now' from 0 to 150 feet but there is a sweaty bit between150 and 300 ft where the choices are less attractive. In a winch lanuch (probably becauseof more experience) I am never in this sweaty "hope it don't break at just this second" position. -- Jonathan |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 05:41:06 +0000 (UTC), "tango4"
wrote: "Mike Borgelt" wrote in message .. . If you want gliding to be popular aerotow involves less running around on the ground per flight hour. A cable retrieve winch such as the one in use at the Long Mynd in the UK makes a winch operation even slicker than aerotowing! Ian So how many winch operations involve two people? I've had tows where the only people present were the tow pilot and the glider pilot. Least I got with auto tow was three. Both were no radio ops. And for you guys who operate on nice green grass airfields which allow things like cable retrieve winches - it don't happen in Oz. And lastly we did have a winch driver killed during a winch launch a few years ago. The wire (basically high tensile single strand fencing wire) shattered as it was being reeled in after the glider released and one of the pieces of shrapnel hit the winch driver in the upper torso and he died shortly thereafter before anyone got to the winch. The lexan shield had been bought but not installed. My favourite launch method involves a motor in the glider. Mike Borgelt |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message .. . And for you guys who operate on nice green grass airfields which allow things like cable retrieve winches - it don't happen in Oz. *********** You have obviously never been to the Long Mynd - I have heard it described rather unkindly) as " a barely levelled granite hilltop". The retrieve system ( a small winch pulls the cable back to the launch point) originated out of necessity many many years ago when the airfield was much smaller and the winch had to be positioned outside the boundary. The cable crossed a deep, (approx 15/20 ft) gully at the airfield boundary and then on up along a slope covered in bracken and heather, any other method of retrieving the cable was impracticable. However the system was so efficient in terms of launch rates that it has continued to this day even though the airfield is now big enough to site the winch within the boundary. There is of course a small penalty in terms of launch height but this is of little significance. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Parachute fails to save SR-22 | Capt.Doug | Piloting | 72 | February 10th 05 05:14 AM |
spaceship one | Pianome | Home Built | 169 | June 30th 04 05:47 AM |
The Internet public meeting on National Air Tour Standards begins Feb. 23 at 9 a.m. | Larry Dighera | Piloting | 0 | February 22nd 04 03:58 PM |
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools | RT | Military Aviation | 104 | September 25th 03 03:17 PM |
using winch instead of aerotow | goneill | Soaring | 5 | August 27th 03 02:46 PM |