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Curtiss SB2C Helldiver wreckage found in Oregon's woods.
On Mar 28, 9:58*pm, Peter Stickney wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:49:27 -0700, wrote: On Mar 28, 9:29*pm, Matt Wiser wrote: On Mar 28, 7:54*am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser wrote: On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki. It surprised me so many were also built in Canada. Ken My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he ever had the misfortune to fly. * *Diogenes Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog. Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down, then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate, name. Ken There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward handled very well. Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)), if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do. It may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft, so a properly trained pilot could handle the "beast". I've read that about the F-104, horses and wives. Ken- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so the Navy had no choice.- * * That'd what I've read....the -1 had lots of issues which were fixed (mostly) in the -3, but by then the reputation was crappy. It was still a crappy airplane. *I've got the NACA report on its Flying Qualities. *Dismal comes pretty close to covering it. To pull just one example - the friction in the control runs was so high that it took 40 lbsf of pull force to move the elevators - while standing still on the ground in no wind. The SB2C was a prewar design. *It took Curtiss nearly all the war to beat it into marginally acceptable shape. By that time, the view of attack airplanes had been changing radically. Rather than the shipboard bombers becoming bigger versions of the Dantless/Helldiver formula, they became single-seat load carriers like the AD-1 and AM-1. Load and speed rose and crew size dropped. Similar to the medium bombers, from B-25 Mitchell to B-26 Marauder to A/B-26 Invader. Speed and handling became preferred as a defense over various gunners. The Mosquito was a big step in that direction too. It says something that the Helldiver was retired pretty soon after WW2 while the Avenger stuck around a couple more years, both were replaced by the Skyraider. Corsairs stuck around into the 1950s too, for multiple uses. -- Pete Stickney Failure is not an option It comes bundled with the system |
#13
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Curtiss SB2C Helldiver wreckage found in Oregon's woods.
On Mar 28, 6:29 pm, Matt Wiser wrote:
On Mar 28, 7:54 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser wrote: On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki. It surprised me so many were also built in Canada. Ken My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he ever had the misfortune to fly. Diogenes Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog. Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down, then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate, name. Ken There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward handled very well. Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)), if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do. It may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft, so a properly trained pilot could handle the "beast". I've read that about the F-104, horses and wives. Ken- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so the Navy had no choice. Yes, landing on a Carrier and landing on lots of pavement are very different levels of skill, IMO even an average pilot could land the Helldiver on lot's of pavement, but a Naval pilot would need to know how to stall that bird real close to the deck edge, to grab the wire, (I'd need a double hit of adrenaline). Naval aviators need that extra skill to put a bird on a deck, that the usual USAF pilots don't need so much, that's always an ongoing problem for the Navy, landing. Ken |
#14
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Curtiss SB2C Helldiver wreckage found in Oregon's woods.
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:22:14 -0700 (PDT), "David E. Powell"
wrote: On Mar 28, 9:58*pm, Peter Stickney wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:49:27 -0700, wrote: On Mar 28, 9:29*pm, Matt Wiser wrote: On Mar 28, 7:54*am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser wrote: On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki. It surprised me so many were also built in Canada. Ken My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he ever had the misfortune to fly. * *Diogenes Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog. Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down, then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate, name. Ken There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward handled very well. Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)), if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do. It may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft, so a properly trained pilot could handle the "beast". I've read that about the F-104, horses and wives. Ken- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so the Navy had no choice.- * * That'd what I've read....the -1 had lots of issues which were fixed (mostly) in the -3, but by then the reputation was crappy. It was still a crappy airplane. *I've got the NACA report on its Flying Qualities. *Dismal comes pretty close to covering it. To pull just one example - the friction in the control runs was so high that it took 40 lbsf of pull force to move the elevators - while standing still on the ground in no wind. The SB2C was a prewar design. *It took Curtiss nearly all the war to beat it into marginally acceptable shape. By that time, the view of attack airplanes had been changing radically. Rather than the shipboard bombers becoming bigger versions of the Dantless/Helldiver formula, they became single-seat load carriers like the AD-1 and AM-1. Load and speed rose and crew size dropped. Similar to the medium bombers, from B-25 Mitchell to B-26 Marauder to A/B-26 Invader. Speed and handling became preferred as a defense over various gunners. The Mosquito was a big step in that direction too. It says something that the Helldiver was retired pretty soon after WW2 while the Avenger stuck around a couple more years, both were replaced by the Skyraider. Corsairs stuck around into the 1950s too, for multiple uses. Invader? My uncle hunted trucks on the Ho Chi Mihn trail, at night and got more than a hundred of them. Nimrod they called the mission. His outfit used up the last of the flyable planes, he told me. Casady |
#15
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Curtiss SB2C Helldiver wreckage found in Oregon's woods.
"Peter Stickney" wrote in message ... On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:49:27 -0700, wrote: On Mar 28, 9:29 pm, Matt Wiser wrote: On Mar 28, 7:54 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser wrote: On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki. It surprised me so many were also built in Canada. Ken My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he ever had the misfortune to fly. Diogenes Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog. Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down, then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate, name. Ken There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward handled very well. Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)), if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do. It may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft, so a properly trained pilot could handle the "beast". I've read that about the F-104, horses and wives. Ken- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so the Navy had no choice.- That'd what I've read....the -1 had lots of issues which were fixed (mostly) in the -3, but by then the reputation was crappy. It was still a crappy airplane. I've got the NACA report on its Flying Qualities. Dismal comes pretty close to covering it. To pull just one example - the friction in the control runs was so high that it took 40 lbsf of pull force to move the elevators - while standing still on the ground in no wind. The SB2C was a prewar design. It took Curtiss nearly all the war to beat it into marginally acceptable shape. By that time, the view of attack airplanes had been changing radically. Rather than the shipboard bombers becoming bigger versions of the Dantless/Helldiver formula, they became single-seat load carriers like the AD-1 and AM-1. -- Pete Stickney Failure is not an option It comes bundled with the system Which is what VB-83 in its report halfway through its 1945 deployment was already urging. Single seater, lots of bombload, the works. (by 1945 standards, anyway) |
#16
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Curtiss SB2C Helldiver wreckage found in Oregon's woods.
"Peter Stickney" wrote in message ... On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:49:27 -0700, wrote: .. It was still a crappy airplane. I've got the NACA report on its Flying Qualities. Dismal comes pretty close to covering it. To pull just one example - the friction in the control runs was so high that it took 40 lbsf of pull force to move the elevators - while standing still on the ground in no wind. The SB2C was a prewar design. It took Curtiss nearly all the war to beat it into marginally acceptable shape. The Fleet Air Arm had one squadron (1820 NAS) equipped with Helldivers. After a number of fatal accidents they realised that the problem was the elevators disintegrating on pullout. An investigation showed elevator problems on all aircraft. The type was permanently grounded and the squadron disbanded. Keith |
#17
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Curtiss SB2C Helldiver wreckage found in Oregon's woods.
On Mar 27, 10:15*pm, Matt Wiser wrote:
There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward handled very well. I saw a passage in Hugh Ambrose's "The Pacific" where he quoted a Navy flier who flew both the 'Speedy B' and SB2C. After transitioning from SBD's, he felt that the SB2C flew 'more like a brick than an airplane' or words to that effect. Dunno which dash number he flew, but the book mentioned a four-bladed prop. Jim H. |
#18
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Curtiss SB2C Helldiver wreckage found in Oregon's woods.
On Mar 30, 8:13*am, "Jim H." wrote:
On Mar 27, 10:15*pm, Matt Wiser wrote: There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward handled very well. I saw a passage in Hugh Ambrose's "The Pacific" where he quoted a Navy flier who flew both the 'Speedy B' and SB2C. After transitioning from SBD's, he felt that the SB2C flew 'more like a brick than an airplane' or words to that effect. *Dunno which dash number he flew, but the book mentioned a four-bladed prop. Jim H. That would be the -3 onward. |
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Ditched: Curtiss SBC-2 Helldiver wreckage found off Maui
On Mar 30, 1:37*pm, Matt Wiser wrote:
On Mar 30, 8:13*am, "Jim H." wrote: On Mar 27, 10:15*pm, Matt Wiser wrote: There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward handled very well. I saw a passage in Hugh Ambrose's "The Pacific" where he quoted a Navy flier who flew both the 'Speedy B' and SB2C. After transitioning from SBD's, he felt that the SB2C flew 'more like a brick than an airplane' or words to that effect. *Dunno which dash number he flew, but the book mentioned a four-bladed prop. Jim H. That would be the -3 onward. Pics at the citation WWII-era plane ID’d Pilot ditched Helldiver in Maalaea Bay in ’44 By ILIMA LOOMIS, Staff Writer POSTED: April 4, 2010 Email: "WWII-era plane ID’d" *To: HARRY DONENFELD photo The nose of a World War II-era Helldiver bomber rests on the ocean floor off Maalaea. Divers have identified the wreck as a plane that crashed during training maneuvers in 1944. WAILUKU - A World War II-era wreck off South Maui first documented in January has been identified as an SBC-2 Helldiver, ditched in Maalaea Bay on a training flight by a Navy pilot in 1944. Maritime archaeologist Hans Van Tilburg of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration dived to the site Saturday and confirmed that it was the plane identified by two groups of private divers separately investigating the wreck. He said the U.S. Navy was in the process of making a plaque to mark the site, which is protected under state and federal law, and that officials may also consider installing a mooring nearby. Van Tilburg said the aircraft was a rare find, not only because the wreck was almost completely preserved, but also because there are very few Helldivers left in existence. "I'm definitely impressed," he said. "It's remarkably intact. I've seen a number of aircraft like this, and this one is very intact. That makes it very special." When the wreck was first documented in January, it was initially believed to be an SBD Dauntless dive bomber. But B&B Scuba Maui owner Brad Varney, who first reported the site to government authorities after learning about it from a local fisherman, said he realized after visiting the wreck a second time that it was actually a Helldiver. Today the plane rests on the sandy bottom of Maalaea Bay in about 50 feet of water, encrusted with coral and surrounded by schools of fish. According to Navy crash records researched by private divers investigating the site, the plane was making a dive-bombing practice attack Aug. 31, 1944, when high-speed maneuvers damaged the tail fin and jammed the rudder controls. With only limited ability to control the aircraft, pilot William E. Dill, a Navy lieutenant, made a water landing, surviving the crash without injuries. Varney, a self-described "history nut," said it was exciting to pore over 60-year-old crash reports and other documents as he and colleagues pieced the story together. "It was pretty cool," he said. "It wasn't that hard to figure out, once you had all the records." Maui-based documentary producer and photographer Harry Donenfeld, who investigated the site with a group of divers from North Shore Explorers, said he was impressed by how smoothly Dill put the plane down in the water with only limited control. The only part of the plane to break off was the tail fin, which had been damaged during the maneuvers. "Clearly he did an incredible landing," he said. "It's like he parked it there." According to Navy records researched by Donenfeld, Dill survived another water landing in a Helldiver just three months later, during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, where his flight group was assigned to the USS Essex aircraft carrier. Leyte was the scene of the largest naval battle during World War II, and it represented a push by the United States to reclaim the Philippines from the imperial forces of Japan. Donenfeld said he wanted to research more of Dill's story and hoped to make contact with his family or people who knew him to help "fill in the blanks." "I would love to hear what the rest of his life was like," he said. "I think it would put an excellent end to the story." Van Tilburg said the wreck represents an important time in Hawaii's history, when thousands of soldiers, sailors and pilots came to the islands to train and prepare for war before being shipped on to the brutal battles of the Pacific. As special as this particular wreck may be, the Helldiver off Maalaea is actually just one of 1,484 naval aircraft known to be lost in waters off the Hawaiian Islands, most on training flights like the one made by Lt. Dill, Van Tilburg said. Pilots like Dill put their planes through extreme maneuvers to prepare for battle, and those steep dives and sharp turns were too much for some aircraft to take. "That's what happened with this one particular crash - the rudder's broken off completely," he said. Pilots also practiced how to ditch a plane, and Van Tilburg said he'd seen cases of pilots who'd survived three, four or even five water landings over the course of the war. The Helldiver was a heavy plane with a large payload, designed to carry 1,000-pound bombs, with a large wing and tail so that it could take off from the short decks of aircraft carriers. "They called it 'the Big-Tailed Beast' or just 'the Beast,' " Van Tilburg said. While the dive site may see a rush of visitors now that its location is public knowledge, anyone visiting the wreck should be aware that the plane is still property of the U.S. Navy, and it's against the law to touch or disturb the site. "It's always exciting to dive an aircraft like that, because that was such a significant period for the island," Van Tilburg said. "It's a bit of history on the bottom of the ocean. I'm glad to see the dive shops are taking a careful approach to accessing the site." http://www.mauinews.com/page/content...id/530164.html |
#20
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Ditched: Curtiss SBC-2 Helldiver wreckage found off Maui
On Apr 5, 10:26 am, Jack Linthicum
wrote: On Mar 30, 1:37 pm, Matt Wiser wrote: On Mar 30, 8:13 am, "Jim H." wrote: On Mar 27, 10:15 pm, Matt Wiser wrote: There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward handled very well. I saw a passage in Hugh Ambrose's "The Pacific" where he quoted a Navy flier who flew both the 'Speedy B' and SB2C. After transitioning from SBD's, he felt that the SB2C flew 'more like a brick than an airplane' or words to that effect. Dunno which dash number he flew, but the book mentioned a four-bladed prop. Jim H. That would be the -3 onward. Pics at the citation WWII-era plane ID’d Pilot ditched Helldiver in Maalaea Bay in ’44 By ILIMA LOOMIS, Staff Writer POSTED: April 4, 2010 Email: "WWII-era plane ID’d" *To: HARRY DONENFELD photo The nose of a World War II-era Helldiver bomber rests on the ocean floor off Maalaea. Divers have identified the wreck as a plane that crashed during training maneuvers in 1944. WAILUKU - A World War II-era wreck off South Maui first documented in January has been identified as an SBC-2 Helldiver, ditched in Maalaea Bay on a training flight by a Navy pilot in 1944. Maritime archaeologist Hans Van Tilburg of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration dived to the site Saturday and confirmed that it was the plane identified by two groups of private divers separately investigating the wreck. He said the U.S. Navy was in the process of making a plaque to mark the site, which is protected under state and federal law, and that officials may also consider installing a mooring nearby. Van Tilburg said the aircraft was a rare find, not only because the wreck was almost completely preserved, but also because there are very few Helldivers left in existence. "I'm definitely impressed," he said. "It's remarkably intact. I've seen a number of aircraft like this, and this one is very intact. That makes it very special." When the wreck was first documented in January, it was initially believed to be an SBD Dauntless dive bomber. But B&B Scuba Maui owner Brad Varney, who first reported the site to government authorities after learning about it from a local fisherman, said he realized after visiting the wreck a second time that it was actually a Helldiver. Today the plane rests on the sandy bottom of Maalaea Bay in about 50 feet of water, encrusted with coral and surrounded by schools of fish. According to Navy crash records researched by private divers investigating the site, the plane was making a dive-bombing practice attack Aug. 31, 1944, when high-speed maneuvers damaged the tail fin and jammed the rudder controls. With only limited ability to control the aircraft, pilot William E. Dill, a Navy lieutenant, made a water landing, surviving the crash without injuries. Varney, a self-described "history nut," said it was exciting to pore over 60-year-old crash reports and other documents as he and colleagues pieced the story together. "It was pretty cool," he said. "It wasn't that hard to figure out, once you had all the records." Maui-based documentary producer and photographer Harry Donenfeld, who investigated the site with a group of divers from North Shore Explorers, said he was impressed by how smoothly Dill put the plane down in the water with only limited control. The only part of the plane to break off was the tail fin, which had been damaged during the maneuvers. "Clearly he did an incredible landing," he said. "It's like he parked it there." According to Navy records researched by Donenfeld, Dill survived another water landing in a Helldiver just three months later, during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, where his flight group was assigned to the USS Essex aircraft carrier. Leyte was the scene of the largest naval battle during World War II, and it represented a push by the United States to reclaim the Philippines from the imperial forces of Japan. Donenfeld said he wanted to research more of Dill's story and hoped to make contact with his family or people who knew him to help "fill in the blanks." "I would love to hear what the rest of his life was like," he said. "I think it would put an excellent end to the story." Van Tilburg said the wreck represents an important time in Hawaii's history, when thousands of soldiers, sailors and pilots came to the islands to train and prepare for war before being shipped on to the brutal battles of the Pacific. As special as this particular wreck may be, the Helldiver off Maalaea is actually just one of 1,484 naval aircraft known to be lost in waters off the Hawaiian Islands, most on training flights like the one made by Lt. Dill, Van Tilburg said. Pilots like Dill put their planes through extreme maneuvers to prepare for battle, and those steep dives and sharp turns were too much for some aircraft to take. "That's what happened with this one particular crash - the rudder's broken off completely," he said. Pilots also practiced how to ditch a plane, and Van Tilburg said he'd seen cases of pilots who'd survived three, four or even five water landings over the course of the war. The Helldiver was a heavy plane with a large payload, designed to carry 1,000-pound bombs, with a large wing and tail so that it could take off from the short decks of aircraft carriers. "They called it 'the Big-Tailed Beast' or just 'the Beast,' " Van Tilburg said. While the dive site may see a rush of visitors now that its location is public knowledge, anyone visiting the wreck should be aware that the plane is still property of the U.S. Navy, and it's against the law to touch or disturb the site. "It's always exciting to dive an aircraft like that, because that was such a significant period for the island," Van Tilburg said. "It's a bit of history on the bottom of the ocean. I'm glad to see the dive shops are taking a careful approach to accessing the site." http://www.mauinews.com/page/content...id/530164.html I'll confess to finding this humorous, "just one of 1,484 naval aircraft known to be lost in waters off the Hawaiian Islands" (I wonder how many 'non-naval' a/c there are). Is that really true? The Japs didn't need an airforce, just a guy in a row boat with a pair of binoculars counting splashes! Ken |
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