A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

New Butterfly Vario



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #71  
Old February 9th 12, 11:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T8
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 429
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 9, 4:50*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Feb 9, 2:04*pm, T8 wrote:









On Feb 9, 1:17*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:


*Even the "gentleman's agreement" doesn't
work to control this. *I have been in and around enough contests to
see this frequently and (at least after a few beers) most contest
pilots will fess up! *I have seen more than one of the names high on
the ranking list sneaking out of the side of a cumulus!


Then you have a problem. *Your options would appear to be peer
pressure or the safety box.


I'm not really a safety monkey (I'd go back to zero height finish
lines in a heartbeat), but I chafe badly when confronted with
borderline suicidal behavior. *This is one such instance. *I'd be
absolutely ripped if I had a really good day, stayed legal, got beat
by some jackass cloud flying.


-Evan Ludeman / T8


I'll repeat what I said earlier and Andy pointed out a few posts ago -
it's very hard to know when to pull out of a strong thermal as you
approach cloudbase, particularly out west. *Most competitive pilots
will go as high as they can, since there is no practical way to
maintain the mandated clearance and no penalty if they do bust it.
Most will go into cloud as an unintended consequence at the top of a
fast climb they held for just one turn too many. *This will happen
regardless of whether or not there are cloud-flying instruments.

Many competitors are already breaking the rules on mandated clearance
from clouds and there is no way to monitor this or penalize the
behavior. *If you want to prevent it, you are going to have to come up
with a way to monitor it.

As a fellow contest pilot said to me "I'll start worrying when clouds
are shown on igc files"

Mike


Ah, okay. I misread your comments earlier as something much less
"incidental".

-Evan Ludeman / T8
  #72  
Old February 10th 12, 01:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 585
Default New Butterfly Vario

I would only like to make you guys think about the following. With
current GPS moving map devices and sampling rates of = 1 sec as well
as very high zoom selection you already pretty much know if you are
turning or not. If you add bank indicator (still allowed) you have all
you need for T&B.

I don't have an opinion on allowing AH type of instruments in our
cockpits. I am against cloud flying period. I realize though enforcing
this is next to impossible unless we all have cameras to record our
flights for inspection.

No more devices in my cockpit. I am already scratching my head where
to put the PowerFlarm (ghost). I also need a small nuclear power plant
in my glider to power all of these "must have" devices.



  #73  
Old February 10th 12, 04:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,005
Default New Butterfly Vario

Exactly. So the chance of being proficient and climbing up into the cloud using a turn and bank is slim to none. Right. So why not let pilots have a turn and bank so that there is at least a chance for them if they do one day get into the cloud.

A hear post after post and frankly am losing respect fast.

This is so wrong...sad. The RC craps on safety out of fear that someone might cheat with an instrument that even the RC says is unusable for what is feared, thermal-ling into clouds with it.

You guys would be great witnesses in my trial...keep it coming.

Really think about what you are saying here.

1) assuming anyone with a safety instrument onboard at a contest has installed it to cheat
2) assuming that a) its impossible to use safely if IMC is encountered AND AT THE SAME TIME b) that everyone with one intends to cheat and will benefit from it.
3) totally disregarding the safety aspect of the instrument.

More observations:
Why does any glider have one?
Why does any light airplane have one?
Why do these companies build AH's into their instruments?

Are these people all idiots? Because that's what you are saying. Why do these instruments exist for gliders? In any form? Hmmmm?
  #74  
Old February 10th 12, 07:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default New Butterfly Vario

On 2/9/2012 12:07 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
What if I have flown contests? What if I havent? Please define for
us all in advance what that information does for you Eric.


I'm hoping that knowing your experience will let me discuss the
situation with you more usefully, rather than just guessing at it and
telling you things you already know, or omitting things that would be
useful to you.

You know my experience in contests from my comments here, but I still
don't know yours.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
  #75  
Old February 10th 12, 07:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default New Butterfly Vario

On 2/9/2012 7:49 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
Exactly. So the chance of being proficient and climbing up into the
cloud using a turn and bank is slim to none. Right. So why not let
pilots have a turn and bank so that there is at least a chance for
them if they do one day get into the cloud.

A hear post after post and frankly am losing respect fast.

This is so wrong...sad. The RC craps on safety out of fear that
someone might cheat with an instrument that even the RC says is
unusable for what is feared, thermal-ling into clouds with it.

You guys would be great witnesses in my trial...keep it coming.

Really think about what you are saying here.

1) assuming anyone with a safety instrument onboard at a contest has
installed it to cheat 2) assuming that a) its impossible to use
safely if IMC is encountered AND AT THE SAME TIME b) that everyone
with one intends to cheat and will benefit from it. 3) totally
disregarding the safety aspect of the instrument.

More observations: Why does any glider have one? Why does any light
airplane have one? Why do these companies build AH's into their
instruments?

Are these people all idiots? Because that's what you are saying.
Why do these instruments exist for gliders? In any form? Hmmmm?


My guess is you have not flown in contests, do not have experience
flying in clouds in a glider, and do not have very much glider
experience. I flew contests for 30 years, and never needed a
cloud-flying instrument, nor did anyone report needing one, and no one
has lobbied for them to be allowed. 30 years! Plus, I've flown 5000
hours in gliders outside of contests, and never needed one even then.

You are making way too big a deal out this. The risks in contests do not
come from flying without a cloud-flying instrument, but from many other
sources. It is not just at the bottom of the list; it's not even on the
list.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
  #76  
Old February 10th 12, 01:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,565
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 9, 5:55*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
If you add bank indicator (still allowed) you have all
you need for T&B.


To the best of my knowledge the only bank indicator allowed by SSA
contest rules is the pilot's view of the world outside the cockpit.
What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

Andy
  #77  
Old February 10th 12, 01:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T8
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 429
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?


That's his checkbook register. After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-).

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)
  #78  
Old February 10th 12, 05:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 952
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 10, 5:54*am, T8 wrote:
On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?


That's his checkbook register. *After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. *The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-).

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)


Eric - the issue is not whether or not you need a particular
instrument but whether, since they are going to be included in an
increasing number of multi-use instruments, these should be
prohibited. In nearly 2,000 hours of glider flying, I have only found
the need for a horizon on two occasions, but I was glad to have one!

Your argument could be used for parachutes too - I have never needed
or used mine.

Mike
  #79  
Old February 10th 12, 06:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,005
Default New Butterfly Vario

So I received this email today. Who else received this email?


12:49 PM (2 minutes ago)

to me

This message may not have been sent by: Learn more Report phishing
The Rules Committee (RC) has become aware of glider instruments that are available, or will soon be available, which will have built-in artificial horizon capabilities. The RC reaffirms the longstanding rule that instruments which can be used to enable flight without reference to the ground are prohibited in competition. The RC policy addressing this issue is posted on the SSA website:
www.ssa.org sailplane racing rules & process important reading -- Instruments with Artificial Horizon or T&B Features http://www.ssa.org/files/member/Rest...t%20Policy.pdf

SSA Contest Committee Chair

--------------------------------------------

And what of my watch, my 396, etc?? I think the rules committee might want to consider another path. I would hate for someone to get tossed at the end of the competition because they flew with an instrument that might save their life someday / or an instrument which has AH capability that they were unaware of... I just find this rule silly, but perhaps I underestimate the lengths that some might go to cheat. Wow is this a dark side of contest soaring. What a shame that this is a policy that some want to stand behind. Safety should be the priority. Here...ANTI SAFETY is the goal.
  #80  
Old February 10th 12, 07:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,005
Default New Butterfly Vario

I do fly contests, have many, many hours, am a commercial pilot, instrument rated. So I guess your incorrect. Hmmm.

Any more lessons for me?
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Butterfly iGlide Reed von Gal Soaring 4 May 2nd 12 06:00 PM
WTB: 57mm Cambridge Vario/FS: 80mm Cambridge Vario ufmechanic Soaring 0 March 24th 09 06:31 PM
TE vario G.A. Seguin Soaring 8 June 8th 04 04:44 AM
WTB LD-200 Vario Romeo Delta Soaring 0 June 4th 04 03:08 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.