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#11
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:30:47 -0400, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote: Badwater Bill wrote: The turn needle is much better. I had heard this, so that's what I put in my Maule when I bought it. Still don't know why it's better, though. George Patterson Brute force has an elegance all its own. I'll tell you why. The needle only shows a real turn of the nose. The turn coordinator will bank on you if you rock the wings and the nose stays pointed straight ahead. So, the turn coordinator gives you fales information. If you hit a bump and your left wing lifts momentarily, the turn coordinator will bank right on you when you aren't turning at all. Hell, in turbulence the son of a bitch is all over the place and is unusable. The needle works on a gyro that ONLY makes the needle move if your nose is changing heading just like the DG. You can see the problem. The turn coordinator gives you too much information but it gives the same indication if you bank or if you stomp a peddle. That's no good. You don't know what really is happening...it could be either. Badwater, "you can stuff them damn turn coordinators" Bill |
#12
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:28:43 -0400, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote: Dick wrote: Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments and their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught in IFR conditions. By the 30's, the mail was going by airlines. I assume you mean the old open cockpit planes of the 20's (like the Pitcairn Mailwing or the earlier Jennie). A skilled pilot can keep one straight and level by the feel of the relative wind on his cheeks and the sound of the wind in the wires, combined with the ball and altimeter. This still isn't as good as a gyro stack, and the accident rate was high. Lots of the pilots simply put the mail on the train if things got too bad. Lindberg discusses some of this in one of his books, and Gann has at least two novels about the period. I've also read an old book by a veteran mail pilot, but I have no idea any more what the title was (I checked it out from either the Knoxville public library or the Bearden High School library in the 60's). George Patterson Brute force has an elegance all its own. You guys must not remember the "Cat and Duck" method of flying instruments. Hell, when I was a kid in the 1950's that's all we used. Any of you young punks know what the hell I'm talking about? BWB |
#13
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Lindberg discusses some of this in one of his books, and Gann has at least two novels about the period. I've also read an old book by a veteran mail pilot, but I have no idea any more what the title was (I checked it out from either the Knoxville public library or the Bearden High School library in the 60's). George Patterson Brute force has an elegance all its own. You guys must not remember the "Cat and Duck" method of flying instruments. Hell, when I was a kid in the 1950's that's all we used. Any of you young punks know what the hell I'm talking about? BWB ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hey - I'm still a young punk.... at heart. http://www.skyhawk.org/2D/tinduck.htm http://www.flippyscatpage.com/instrument.html http://jokes-quotes.com/contentid-239.html http://www.eaa445.org/instrument.htm http://www.ahajokes.com/ani031.html http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/catduck.html Barnyard BOb -- 50 years of flight |
#14
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In article et, Bill Daniels wrote:
Every figured what you would do if the wet compass goes TA while you are in the soup and all you have is a manually set DG? Been there. Declare an emergency and request a no-gyro approach. If I'm out of radar coverage, then I guess I'd just start compensating for drift as though there were wind, even though it's really precession error. That would get kind of difficult eventually, so I might be tempted to reset it based on what I thought the winds really were when I appeared to be tracking a course accurately. It probably wouldn't be any worse afterwards.... Did you have some suggestions in mind when you asked the question? If so, I for one would like to hear them. Regards, Mike |
#15
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In article , Jan Carlsson wrote:
Good reading is the "I could never be so lucky again" and also "The Spirit of ST Louis" (1953) The last one tells a lot about how it was to be a mail pilot in the 20's _The Spirit of St. Louis_ is one of those books all pilots should read (because they'll probably like them), like _Fate is the Hunter_. If I recall correctly, Lindberg talks about getting caught over a deck and letting the plane find its own way down while he walks. I think *that's* how the mail pilots handled hard IFR. (If it's really in a different book, it still doesn't change the recommendation to read it!). Mike |
#16
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"Mike Beede" wrote in message ... In article et, Bill Daniels wrote: Every figured what you would do if the wet compass goes TA while you are in the soup and all you have is a manually set DG? Been there. Declare an emergency and request a no-gyro approach. If I'm out of radar coverage, then I guess I'd just start compensating for drift as though there were wind, even though it's really precession error. That would get kind of difficult eventually, so I might be tempted to reset it based on what I thought the winds really were when I appeared to be tracking a course accurately. It probably wouldn't be any worse afterwards.... Did you have some suggestions in mind when you asked the question? If so, I for one would like to hear them. Regards, Mike I declared an emergency and requested a no-gyro approach as you suggested - even though I had gyros. Then, because I had quite a ways to go to the first IFR runway, I figured out that the GPS ground track was almost as good as a wet compass. I just set the DG to the GPS ground track and ignored wind - which worked as long as I didn't change heading often. That got me into approach's radar coverage and the no-gyro approach worked from there. My CFII had told me that there was no backup for a wet compass because "they never fail" - baloney, the glass cracked and all the fluid ran down the instrument panel. After that, it wouldn't move. Made me think. Bill Daniels |
#17
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I'll tell you why. The needle only shows a real turn of the nose.
The turn coordinator will bank on you if you rock the wings and the nose stays pointed straight ahead. So, the turn coordinator gives you fales information. If you hit a bump and your left wing lifts momentarily, the turn coordinator will bank right on you when you aren't turning at all. Hell, in turbulence the son of a bitch is all over the place and is unusable. The needle works on a gyro that ONLY makes the needle move if your nose is changing heading just like the DG. You can see the problem. The turn coordinator gives you too much information but it gives the same indication if you bank or if you stomp a peddle. That's no good. You don't know what really is happening...it could be either. Badwater, "you can stuff them damn turn coordinators" Bill I think you are wrong. The turn coordinator doesn't give you bad information, just different information. Consider for a moment what your best response should be if during straight and level flight you suddenly find yourself in a 30 degree right bank because of turbulence or any other reason for that matter. I think you would agree that you should apply left aileron (as well as left rudder to remain as coordinated as possible) until any turning and/or banking indications are removed and you are on your proper heading. This is not that much different from your response if you suddenly find yourself in a right turn. Consider also the situation where you are flying partial panel (i.e. your AI is not working). In response to the 30 degree bank above, your response with a turn indicator will be nothing since you won't even know that anything is wrong. Eventually the 30 degree bank will cause turn and only then will you be able to correct for it. Assuming you don't over-react to the turn coordinator's indication you should be able to fly smoother than when using the turn needle because you can respond sooner. In fact the turn coordinator was invented because the engineers noticed that their autopilots (connected only to the rate gyro) flew smoother when the gyro axis was tilted slightly (and thus causing it to respond somewhat to roll rate in addition to yaw). While it's true that some pilots fly better with one type of turn indicator or the other, the difference usually depends on which instrument the pilot started with or has become most accustomed to. And many pilots fly just as well using either turn instrument even in turbulence. It often helps to understand exactly what the needles indicate for the two different instruments (although surprisingly even that is not always needed). ~Paul |
#18
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"Paul Mennen" wrote in message m... I'll tell you why. The needle only shows a real turn of the nose. The turn coordinator will bank on you if you rock the wings and the nose stays pointed straight ahead. So, the turn coordinator gives you fales information. If you hit a bump and your left wing lifts momentarily, the turn coordinator will bank right on you when you aren't turning at all. Hell, in turbulence the son of a bitch is all over the place and is unusable. The needle works on a gyro that ONLY makes the needle move if your nose is changing heading just like the DG. You can see the problem. The turn coordinator gives you too much information but it gives the same indication if you bank or if you stomp a peddle. That's no good. You don't know what really is happening...it could be either. Badwater, "you can stuff them damn turn coordinators" Bill I think you are wrong. The turn coordinator doesn't give you bad information, just different information. Consider for a moment what your best response should be if during straight and level flight you suddenly find yourself in a 30 degree right bank because of turbulence or any other reason for that matter. I think you would agree that you should apply left aileron (as well as left rudder to remain as coordinated as possible) until any turning and/or banking indications are removed and you are on your proper heading. This is not that much different from your response if you suddenly find yourself in a right turn. Consider also the situation where you are flying partial panel (i.e. your AI is not working). In response to the 30 degree bank above, your response with a turn indicator will be nothing since you won't even know that anything is wrong. Eventually the 30 degree bank will cause turn and only then will you be able to correct for it. Assuming you don't over-react to the turn coordinator's indication you should be able to fly smoother than when using the turn needle because you can respond sooner. In fact the turn coordinator was invented because the engineers noticed that their autopilots (connected only to the rate gyro) flew smoother when the gyro axis was tilted slightly (and thus causing it to respond somewhat to roll rate in addition to yaw). While it's true that some pilots fly better with one type of turn indicator or the other, the difference usually depends on which instrument the pilot started with or has become most accustomed to. And many pilots fly just as well using either turn instrument even in turbulence. It often helps to understand exactly what the needles indicate for the two different instruments (although surprisingly even that is not always needed). ~Paul I have always though of a turn coordinator as a magnificent solution..... to a non-existent problem. The purpose of a needle is not only to keep the aircraft upright, it's to facilitate accurate timed turns to an exact heading. If turbulence bumps the aircraft to a 30 degree bank but the aircraft does not turn, the ball will instantly show this by moving toward the low wing. Since the ball does not over-react, the pilot won't either. The thing I like most about a needle is that if held exactly on the standard rate turn "doghouse" timed turns are very accurate - the kind of accuracy that makes partial panel approaches practical. I've never seen anybody get that kind of accuracy out of a turn coordinator. Bill Daniels |
#19
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I have always though of a turn coordinator as a magnificent solution.....
to a non-existent problem. Do you call designing a smooth flying autopilot a non-existing problem? True some later autopilots achieve smooth flying by tapping off the attitude indicator, but I believe this is slightly more complicated. I'll grant you that if it were not for the autopilot problem we would all be happily flying around with turn and bank indicators. If turbulence bumps the aircraft to a 30 degree bank but the aircraft does not turn, the ball will instantly show this by moving toward the low wing. True. For that reason I shouldn't have said that you wouldn't even know about the 30 degree bank until the turn started. I was thinking from the autopilot's perspective. (The autopilot is not hooked to the ball.) Since the ball does not over-react, the pilot won't either. The turn coordinator does not over-react any more than the ball does. It merely shows the sum of the yaw and roll rate. In any case the response by the pilot to an unwanted bank angle whether detected from looking at an AI, TC, or T&B is the same - enter a smooth coordinated turn in the opposite direction (usually requiring both aileron and rudder opposite to the unwanted bank) until the airplane is once again straight and level. I've seen some pilots (esp. those relying mostly on a T&B) respond to this situation simply by stomping on the rudder opposite to the direction of the ball deflection. Perhaps the reasoning is - well since it is only the ball that is out of whack because of the damn turbulence, I'll counter the turbulence in the most expeditious manner by an equally jarring jab on the opposite rudder. This works fine unless you have any passengers. They will turn green about 3 times faster than if you fly properly. The thing I like most about a needle is that if held exactly on the standard rate turn "doghouse" timed turns are very accurate - the kind of accuracy that makes partial panel approaches practical. Bill, you are showing your prejudice. It is entirely practical to do such approaches with either instrument. On my CFII checkride I did a fine partial panel approach down to 200 feet using my turn coordinator. I've seen other pilots do this also. As far as timed turns, remember that once the turn has stabilized (constant bank angle) the T&B and TC needles show the same thing. If you roll out of the turn the same way you roll into it, your timed turns will be accurate. (This is true using either instrument). The TC needle will react more to turbulence, but if you react to the indications smoothly (as I described for straight and level flight) it will do a good job for you. I've never seen anybody get that kind of accuracy out of a turn coordinator. Bill Daniels Well I guess you just haven't looked very hard ~Paul |
#20
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:27:44 -0400, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote: Badwater Bill wrote: You guys must not remember the "Cat and Duck" method of flying instruments. Hell, when I was a kid in the 1950's that's all we used. Hell, the ASPCA won't let us use cats anymore, and good ducks are hard to find. Been hunted too much, I suppose. Lordy...I have a cat that loves to play catch...Yah have to remember to be careful though as he's not been declawed. They are long and sharp, so if he grabs yah, you know which ever way them fish hooks are pulling is down. My biggest problem is he's not afraid of heights and killed the last two ducks. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) George Patterson Brute force has an elegance all its own. |
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