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#131
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"David E. Powell" wrote in message s.com... "Ivan Grozny" wrote in message ... "ZZBunker" wrote in message om... "Nicholas Smid" wrote in message ... "Stuart Wilkes' mom" wrote in message t... I always said Stuey would never amount to anything. "Drazen Kramaric" wrote in message ... On 23 Oct 2003 03:20:56 -0700, (Stuart Wilkes) wrote: What were the numbers of soldiers involved in the two campaigns that you are comparing. i.e: Suprisingly equal, Rostyk. I'm suprised you didn't know that. Post the numbers, then. Rawest numbers for jan 1939 Germany 1,500,000 troops Holland 60,000 Belgium 80,000 France 700,000 Britain 154,000 total 994,000 in divisions the Germans had 136 against 136 To keep some navy in this well the German navy at the time might be able to beat Hollands but it was totaly out classed by both major powers In aircaft it was about 4500 against about 5900, though the Germans did have a lower proportion of obsaleat types. The Germans didn't need much of a Navy in WWII, since they were attacking North Africa, the Middle East, France, and Russia, not the US. Where is pathetic loser Stuart Wilkes when you need him? So they weren't attacking the US? German submarines routinely sank US ships in US coastal waters, especially early on. They also routinely sank US merchant marine vessels in international waters. Doenitz pleaded with Hitler for more ships and subs. If Germany didn't need a navy, why was Doenitz asking for them? Yes... Operation Drumbeat, off the US Atlantic coast and in the Gulf of Mexico, caught the US quite hard early on in 1942. Also, it took time for the US to get the convoy doctrine and patrol aircraft up and running. And to get the lights turned off in the coastal towns at night.... And especially since they were fighting with tanks, rockets, and missles, and the rest of Europe was fighting with horses and cannons. Wrong. Germany used horses throughout the war like all the other continental European countries. The US used motorized vehicles almost exclusively. The V-1 and V-2 had no strategic impact. Right again. People tend to forget that while the Whermacht used motorized forces for blitzkrieg style attacks and front line action, the supply chain of the German Armed forces relied very heavily on horse drawn wagons and such, in terms of supply chain. Especially in the Eastern Front, where trucks bogged down in mud bad, (though carts were also troubled.) Besides, when one is short on diesel fuel and gasoline, finding food for a horse can be easier. Up to the end of the war, the Germans used horses. As for the V-1 and V-2, yes, they were terror weapons. But by the time they came out, German cities were taking far more damage from Allied air raids than their V-weapons could inflict on the Allies. Also, disinformation, antiaircraft guns and bulked up fighter defenses helped protect London against V-1 attacks after a while. One of the Western Allies' greatest contributions to the war was the bombing campaign. And since it was the invasions of Sicily, Normany, and Norway that saved Russia's ass from certain anniolation, you're missing several other armies in the analysis. The battles of Stalingrad and Kursk occured before June of 1944, I believe. Also, the Germans had forces tied down by the Allied invasion of Italy. It was the D-Day attack that opened the way in the west, however. Kesselring and the Apennine mountains were quite nasty delaying forces in Italy. Though the allies did tie down German and Axis forces there. Hitler's war on many fronts was a grand mistake. Not to mention the garrison requirements of the countries he had already taken. From France and the Low Countries in the west to Yugoslavia and Greece in the east. This by no means takes anything from the bravery of the Russian people and soldiers that fought, however. From the gates of Moscow to Leningrad to the Reichschanchellery in Berlin, they did a ton of damage, and took a lot, too. Not to mention the footage I have seen of people setting up factories and working hot steel in buildings with no roofs on yet and snow coming down. There aren't words for that kind of bravery. You need to be a little more specific about bravery when you talk about the Russians. Much of their bravery came at the muzzle of an NKVD rifle. The Moscow panic was brutally surpressed by the NKVD. If you didn't work long hard hours in those factories, you could be shot. NKVD units were generally interspersed with regular units. Anyone not showing sufficient enthusiasm for marching into a Nazi machine gun nest would be shot in the back. The end of the war did not bring relief but did bring into being the gulag system of slave labor. Then there is the issue of the Russians that welcomed the Nazis hoping to get rid of the Communists. Ukranians, although not Russians, were often quite happy to see the Germans, especially remembering that Stalin's famine caused about 4 million of them to die. While Chechans were storming the Reichstag, their families back home were being deported to Siberia. Size of armies in the west and the casualties? Well, the French Army alone suffered 1.9 million KIA and prisoners in the campaign in the West, while the combined Franco-Anglo-Belgian-Dutch armies inflicted ~27,000 KIA on the Germans. Your numbers are correct, but do not tell the whole story. France surrendered because it had no more manpower nor space to continue the war so all their remaining soldiers went to POW camps. Had you included only POWs captured prior to cease fire the numbers would be The Vichy government maintained a large army untill the end of 42, at which point alot of it went over to the allies. Also alot of units, especully reserve units, disbanded themselves late in the campain and went home where they were left as civies. more correct, but would represent argument against your thesis, that Red Army represented the most efficient enemy realistically possible. In this case, the Germans faced unprepared unalerted, peacetime-strength Rifle Divisions (~6000 men) far from their assigned battle positions, which is one of the advantages you get when you do a sneak attack. Except the only person the attack was a surprise to was the boss, due to willful self deseption and a willingness to shoot anyone who dared to tell him the truth, it dose speck volumes for the courage of many in the Red army that they went on trying however. The trouble was that a large chunk of the Red army was in its battle possitions, the possitions were just insainly chosin. being in the middle of a major re equipment cycle and doctran change didn't help much ether. You are representing this as 3,000,000 German soldiers appeared out of nowehere next to the Soviet border. The primary person responsible for Red Army been caught napping is the man you feel was justified in invading Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland under the pretext of "security in case of German attack". Why don't you address that fact for a change? Moving the boarder west probably saved Russia in 41, if preperations had been made with any degree of compatence they should have done far better. The failiers rest 110% with the guy at the top and his cronies, though atleast he had the ability once the war started to learn from his errors if not as fast as might be desired. Atleast he was smart enough to recognise talent and from the middle of 42 mostly listen to people who knew what they were talking about. Drax |
#132
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"Actual Oxyclean User" wrote in message . net...
snip You need to be a little more specific about bravery when you talk about the Russians. Indeed. Much of their bravery came at the muzzle of an NKVD rifle. Actually Mark, only a tiny bit of it came from NKVD rifles, since there was very little NKVD to go around. There was no NKVD when Zhukov trounded the Japanese. There was no NKVD when Col. Polosukhin's 32nd Rifle Division gutted 40th Panzercorps at Borodino. There was no NKVD when Col. Katukov's 4th Tank Bde sliced and diced 4th Panzer Division on the approach to Tula. further examples can be supplied. So there's another one of your spiteful lies exposed. The Moscow panic was brutally surpressed by the NKVD. Apparently, Mark would prefer it if it had spread. What alternative was there? If you didn't work long hard hours in those factories, you could be shot. Apparently, Mark would prefer it if those factories had produced less. What alternative was there? NKVD units were generally interspersed with regular units. Yeah, around one battalion per Front. That works out to about 1% of the force. Anyone not showing sufficient enthusiasm for marching into a Nazi machine gun nest would be shot in the back. Yet another spiteful lie. No denying that it happened occasionally, but it was far from "anyone". The end of the war did not bring relief Sure it did. No Germans killing people by the tens of millions, after all. but did bring into being the gulag system of slave labor. Then there is the issue of the Russians that welcomed the Nazis hoping to get rid of the Communists. Ukranians, although not Russians, were often A minority were. But from the vast majority, the Germans got nothing but hatred and opposition. Hence the unsustainable casualties the Germans suffered, from the very start of the war. quite happy to see the Germans, Oh yeah, I remember the staged newsreels of people lined up neatly in front of villages and then running simultaneously towards German tanks to greet them. I don't buy anything so hokey, but it's no suprise that you do. The reality is that the Germans found the most bitter, determined resistance they had run into up to that point in the war when they attacked the USSR. especially remembering that Stalin's famine caused about 4 million of them to die. While Chechans were storming the Reichstag, their families back home were being deported to Siberia. And where were Japanese-Americans when Lt. Daniel Inoue was wounded in the action that got him a Distinguished Service Cross? Stuart Wilkes |
#133
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"Stuart Wilkes" wrote in message om... "Actual Oxyclean User" wrote in message . net... snip You need to be a little more specific about bravery when you talk about the Russians. Indeed. Much of their bravery came at the muzzle of an NKVD rifle. Actually Mark, only a tiny bit of it came from NKVD rifles, since there was very little NKVD to go around. But enough to instill fear...which was the main objective anyway. There was no NKVD when Zhukov trounded the Japanese. And there was no NKVD when millions of Russians ran as fast as their little feet could carry them in front of the advancing Barbarossa frat house party. There was no NKVD when Col. Polosukhin's 32nd Rifle Division gutted 40th Panzercorps at Borodino. There was no NKVD when Col. Katukov's 4th Tank Bde sliced and diced 4th Panzer Division on the approach to Tula. further examples can be supplied. So there's another one of your spiteful lies exposed. The Moscow panic was brutally surpressed by the NKVD. Apparently, Mark would prefer it if it had spread. What alternative was there? Communication? Apparently this is an abstract concept for Russians. Still is. If you didn't work long hard hours in those factories, you could be shot. Apparently, Mark would prefer it if those factories had produced less. What alternative was there? In the US we didn't seem to have a problem. We didn't trump up phoney charges to get free slave labor. Not even interned Japanese were subjected to forced labor. The worst the German POWs had it was working in vegetable gardens to grow their own food. I guess that's why so many German POWs didn't want to be repatriated. Willy Von Braun didn't think it was so bad here. NKVD units were generally interspersed with regular units. Yeah, around one battalion per Front. That works out to about 1% of the force. Anyone not showing sufficient enthusiasm for marching into a Nazi machine gun nest would be shot in the back. Yet another spiteful lie. No denying that it happened occasionally, but it was far from "anyone". But no such "NKVD" units accompanied American soldiers, not even 1%. The end of the war did not bring relief Sure it did. No Germans killing people by the tens of millions, after all. And the Soviets simply picked up where the Nazis left off. but did bring into being the gulag system of slave labor. Then there is the issue of the Russians that welcomed the Nazis hoping to get rid of the Communists. Ukranians, although not Russians, were often A minority were. But from the vast majority, the Germans got nothing but hatred and opposition. Hence the unsustainable casualties the Germans suffered, from the very start of the war. Nyet. Byelorussians, Ukranians and Balts were quite happy to see the Nazis march into their towns...as were many Russians. The problem arose in the fact that there were two competing philosophies in the German military...one that wanted to "allie" with the conquered and the hardliners who took a more racist approach. The hardliners won out. You know this very well Stuey so quit the smoke screen. quite happy to see the Germans, Oh yeah, I remember the staged newsreels of people lined up neatly in front of villages and then running simultaneously towards German tanks to greet them. I don't buy anything so hokey, but it's no suprise that you do. Yes, of course. You were there and interviewed every person. Opinion, not fact. This is why nobody should believe any of your "history". You are incapable of separating your personal bias from historical fact. The reality is that the Germans found the most bitter, determined resistance they had run into up to that point in the war when they attacked the USSR. No. When the Germans attacked the USSR, they ran and surrendered by the millions. This is historical fact. Determined resitance did not happen until Stalingrad....and only because Stalin decided to make a meat grinder out of it i.e. the Soviets sent there to fight had no choice in the matter. especially remembering that Stalin's famine caused about 4 million of them to die. While Chechans were storming the Reichstag, their families back home were being deported to Siberia. And where were Japanese-Americans when Lt. Daniel Inoue was wounded in the action that got him a Distinguished Service Cross? They were be given food, clothing and shelter and protective custody. How many of those Japanese-Americans returned to Japan after the war? Another Stuey smoke screen where you try to cast one isolated incident as general policy. This sounds like Stuey hipocrisy to me. According to you, the Soviets were justified in committing mass murder during the Moscow panic but the US was wrong to gather together potential saboteurs. This double standard is nothing new for you. Stuart Wilkes, apologist for mass murder. |
#134
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Actual Oxyclean User wrote:
"David E. Powell" wrote in message s.com... Not to mention the footage I have seen of people setting up factories and working hot steel in buildings with no roofs on yet and snow coming down. There aren't words for that kind of bravery. You need to be a little more specific about bravery when you talk about the Russians. Much of their bravery came at the muzzle of an NKVD rifle. The Moscow panic was brutally surpressed by the NKVD. If you didn't work long hard hours in those factories, you could be shot. NKVD units were generally interspersed with regular units. Anyone not showing sufficient enthusiasm for marching into a Nazi machine gun nest would be shot in the back. The end of the war did not bring relief but did bring into being the gulag system of slave labor. Then there is the issue of the Russians that welcomed the Nazis hoping to get rid of the Communists. Ukranians, although not Russians, were often quite happy to see the Germans, especially remembering that Stalin's famine caused about 4 million of them to die. While Chechans were storming the Reichstag, their families back home were being deported to Siberia. Oxycleam Your comments would be much more credible, if you had your 'facts' in better shape. The gulag was in official existance from ~1919 through 1956. It did not come into existance at the end of WW2. Moreover political prisons and forced labor camps have existed in the Russian empire longer than just that. E.g. construction battalions for St. Petersburg and the Vyshnii Volochek System of canals. The 1932-33 Holodomor claimed about 7 million not 4. -- Rostyk |
#135
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"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote in message ... Actual Oxyclean User wrote: "David E. Powell" wrote in message s.com... Not to mention the footage I have seen of people setting up factories and working hot steel in buildings with no roofs on yet and snow coming down. There aren't words for that kind of bravery. You need to be a little more specific about bravery when you talk about the Russians. Much of their bravery came at the muzzle of an NKVD rifle. The Moscow panic was brutally surpressed by the NKVD. If you didn't work long hard hours in those factories, you could be shot. NKVD units were generally interspersed with regular units. Anyone not showing sufficient enthusiasm for marching into a Nazi machine gun nest would be shot in the back. The end of the war did not bring relief but did bring into being the gulag system of slave labor. Then there is the issue of the Russians that welcomed the Nazis hoping to get rid of the Communists. Ukranians, although not Russians, were often quite happy to see the Germans, especially remembering that Stalin's famine caused about 4 million of them to die. While Chechans were storming the Reichstag, their families back home were being deported to Siberia. Oxycleam Your comments would be much more credible, if you had your 'facts' in better shape. The gulag was in official existance from ~1919 through 1956. It did not come into existance at the end of WW2. Moreover political prisons and forced labor camps have existed in the Russian empire longer than just that. E.g. construction battalions for St. Petersburg and the Vyshnii Volochek System of canals. The 1932-33 Holodomor claimed about 7 million not 4. I don't think Stalin kept count. -- Rostyk |
#136
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"Actual Oxyclean User" wrote in message . net...
"Stuart Wilkes" wrote in message om... "Actual Oxyclean User" wrote in message . net... snip You need to be a little more specific about bravery when you talk about the Russians. Indeed. Much of their bravery came at the muzzle of an NKVD rifle. Actually Mark, only a tiny bit of it came from NKVD rifles, since there was very little NKVD to go around. But enough to instill fear...which was the main objective anyway. There was no NKVD when Zhukov trounded the Japanese. And there was no NKVD when millions of Russians ran as fast as their little feet could carry them in front of the advancing Barbarossa frat house party. That's because it was a war of racial extermination, Mark. It's generally smart to run away from one of those if you can. There was no NKVD when Col. Polosukhin's 32nd Rifle Division gutted 40th Panzercorps at Borodino. There was no NKVD when Col. Katukov's 4th Tank Bde sliced and diced 4th Panzer Division on the approach to Tula. further examples can be supplied. So there's another one of your spiteful lies exposed. The Moscow panic was brutally surpressed by the NKVD. Apparently, Mark would prefer it if it had spread. What alternative was there? Communication? Communicate what, with a war of racial extermination on the way? Apparently this is an abstract concept for Russians. Still is. If you didn't work long hard hours in those factories, you could be shot. Apparently, Mark would prefer it if those factories had produced less. What alternative was there? In the US we didn't seem to have a problem. We weren't being subjected to a war of racial extermination. There was no Wehrmacht on our territory killing tens of millions of us and occupying the most extensively-developed part of our country. We didn't trump up phoney charges to get free slave labor. Not even interned Japanese were subjected to forced labor. The worst the German POWs had it was working in vegetable gardens to grow their own food. I guess that's why so many German POWs didn't want to be repatriated. Willy Von Braun didn't think it was so bad here. NKVD units were generally interspersed with regular units. Yeah, around one battalion per Front. That works out to about 1% of the force. Anyone not showing sufficient enthusiasm for marching into a Nazi machine gun nest would be shot in the back. Yet another spiteful lie. No denying that it happened occasionally, but it was far from "anyone". But no such "NKVD" units accompanied American soldiers, not even 1%. We weren't being subjected to a war of racial extermination. There was no Wehrmacht on our territory killing tens of millions of us. The end of the war did not bring relief Sure it did. No Germans killing people by the tens of millions, after all. And the Soviets simply picked up where the Nazis left off. Prove it. but did bring into being the gulag system of slave labor. Then there is the issue of the Russians that welcomed the Nazis hoping to get rid of the Communists. Ukranians, although not Russians, were often A minority were. But from the vast majority, the Germans got nothing but hatred and opposition. Hence the unsustainable casualties the Germans suffered, from the very start of the war. Nyet. Byelorussians, Ukranians and Balts were quite happy to see the Nazis march into their towns...as were many Russians. Said Dr. Goebbels, and his intellectual heirs down to the present day. A group that includes you. The problem arose in the fact that there were two competing philosophies in the German military...one that wanted to "allie" with the conquered and the hardliners who took a more racist approach. Except that the guy at the top, whose opinion was the only one that counted on the matter, wanted all the "JewBolshevikRiddenSubhumanSlavs" gone. The hardliners won out. The other sort on this question counted for nothing. You know this very well Stuey so quit the smoke screen. Quel smokescreen? quite happy to see the Germans, Oh yeah, I remember the staged newsreels of people lined up neatly in front of villages and then running simultaneously towards German tanks to greet them. I don't buy anything so hokey, but it's no suprise that you do. Yes, of course. You were there and interviewed every person. Opinion, not fact. A better-grounded opinion than yours. This is why nobody should believe any of your "history". You are incapable of separating your personal bias from historical fact. Sez the source of repeated howling errors and spiteful lies. The reality is that the Germans found the most bitter, determined resistance they had run into up to that point in the war when they attacked the USSR. No. Okay Mark, when had they run into fiercer and more determined resistance up to that point in the war? When the Germans attacked the USSR, they ran and surrendered by the millions. This is historical fact. And where didn't this happen wherever the Germas attacked, up to that point in the war? Determined resitance did not happen until Stalingrad The Germans themselves didn't think so. ....and only because Stalin decided to make a meat grinder out of it i.e. the Soviets sent there to fight had no choice in the matter. Actually, Zhukov set that up, at Yelnia, in August 1941. Stopped Army Group center in its tracks, and forced the Germans into a two-Corps withdrawl. First time they had had to do one of those to that point in the war. especially remembering that Stalin's famine caused about 4 million of them to die. While Chechans were storming the Reichstag, their families back home were being deported to Siberia. And where were Japanese-Americans when Lt. Daniel Inoue was wounded in the action that got him a Distinguished Service Cross? They were be given food, clothing and shelter and protective custody. How many of those Japanese-Americans returned to Japan after the war? Another Stuey smoke screen where you try to cast one isolated incident as general policy. How much Japanese-American collaboration with Imperial Japan was there? This sounds like Stuey hipocrisy to me. Sez the spiteful liar. According to you, the Soviets were justified in committing mass murder during the Moscow panic Would you have preferred it to have gone on? but the US was wrong to gather together potential saboteurs. How many sabotage plots were found among Japanese-Americans Mark? This double standard is nothing new for you. Sez the spiteful liar who wanted to nuke a city of two million, 99.999% of whom never attacked the US, and the remainder who did were former US proteges. k.net "I hope like hell the US does use the nuclear option. It sounds like they're going to get us into another Viet Nam...screw this long engagement crap. It will just get more Americans killed. Fry the *******s. Let Kabul be the example." Stuart Wilkes |
#137
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Actual Oxyclean User wrote:
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote in message ... The 1932-33 Holodomor claimed about 7 million not 4. I don't think Stalin kept count. Yeah... You're right I can't argue with your logic |
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