GA headed for regulatory trouble

Personal opinions of Mr. Koresh aside, does anyone remember the dog and pony
show put on after Iran Air 655? Much of the same stuff, and if you look into
the facts, not only was it actually a unarmed air carrier, the commanders of
British vessels present never wondered about the identity of the flight and
let us not forget our friends in the CIA for helping with the murder of a
missionary and her infant. So an innocent american splattered in the ADIZ
for getting lost would hardly ruffle a feather amongst the population when
they got done.
In the USA I remember, all of them folks would be swinging from the same
rope we would have used for the a**h**es that took out our aircraft in Sept.
if they would have survived.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:LvJxe.6154$mr4.2471@trnddc05...
Jay Honeck wrote:

Well, George, this is now the third (?) time

I think you need to learn to count.

So, let's hear 'em. What made the "nutcases" at Waco and Ruby Ridge so
noble, in your view?

I didn't say anything about nobility, but everything *you* "know" about
them has
been provided you by the people who killed them. In the case of Ruby
Ridge,
there were adult survivors. After hearing the facts from all sides,
Congress
told the head of the FBI to change their procedures immediately and
"rethink"
their policies. The survivors were aquitted of the accusation which had
been
used to "justify" the assault (I use the term in the military sense) and
awarded
substantial monetary damages.

What we have in these two cases were citizens who were brutally attacked
and
(mostly) killed by Federal agents and slandered during and after the fact.
This
is exactly what would happen to a pilot who was shot down in the ADIZ. By
the
time the facts came out (if they ever did), most of the people in the
country
would believe that you were a known Al-Quaida agent and that the plane was
certainly carrying half a ton of TNT.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

This is not a constructive attitude, IMHO. Railing against the darkness
helps not...

How does benign complacency help?

One person's "benign complacency" is another person's "following the rules."

Or are you advocating that we all bust the ADIZ to prove your point?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

This is not a constructive attitude, IMHO. Railing against the
darkness helps not...

So what do you do everytime some new rule or law or restriction
of any kind comes along that you disagree with? Just put up with
it and say "oh well, just have to learn to live with it"?

No.

But I don't advocate breaking the rule while I'm arguing against it --
especially when the stakes are so high.

Every one of these bozos who violate that ADIZ jeopardize my way of life.
THEY are the enemy, not my government.

We the People will eventually change or eliminate the ADIZ -- or not. It's
all going to come down to how well we (as pilots) argue our case in the
court of public opinion -- and brazenly breaking the ADIZ (and causing
thousands of non-pilots to panic every other week) is NOT helpful.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Cost is always a consideration. Folks apparently still don't understand
that
GPS is not essential to navigation.

Neither is vision. But I strongly advocate looking ahead once in a while.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

The Washington, D.C. ADIZ is there, and not moving any time soon. We, as
pilots, had better learn to live with it, and properly navigate through
it -- it's NOT difficult -- or our concept of Free Flight in America will
be jeopardized.

Yes, we shouldn't violate it, but we also shouldn't stop fighting against
it using all available legal means.

Bravo! Now THAT is a constructive attitude!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

To fly in an area where loss of situational awareness can cause
evacuation of the White House (or worse), not using every navigational
tool at our disposal is potentially foolhardy.

Oh, Jay, that's just silly.

If there's GPS in the airplane, sure, turn it on and use it. But if your
rental does -not- have a GPS, then electing not to fly in the DC area
because of this would indicate to me a lack of confidence in one's flying
skills that requires more training, whether to build the skills, or to
build the confidence.

I agree 100%. But are you willing to bet that the casual weekend pilot has
the navigational savvy to ded reckon his way around the ADIZ?

I don't. I flew in the ADIZ a few weeks ago, and there aren't very many
identifiable landmarks (until, of course, you see the Washington Monument,
by which time it's too late!) to use, especially in the evening haze. I was
damned glad to have that big ol' color map to follow.

Could I have done it with just a sectional? Sure! Hell, from Frederick, I
could have just set a course and a stop watch, and probably flown straight
to Dulles International without ever looking inside the plane. Unless, of
course, I had to deviate for weather (there was plenty in the area), or was
vectored by ATC. Suddenly my ded reckoning skills might have been taxed
beyond my abilities.

GPS makes that sort of thing a complete non-event, and costs less than a
tank of gas.

Again, if you're going to bet the farm on flying inside of an ADIZ, I think
you're foolish to leave GPS on the ground before you go.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

This is not a constructive attitude, IMHO. Railing against the
darkness helps not...

So what do you do everytime some new rule or law or restriction
of any kind comes along that you disagree with? Just put up with
it and say "oh well, just have to learn to live with it"?


No.

But I don't advocate breaking the rule while I'm arguing against it --
especially when the stakes are so high.

Every one of these bozos who violate that ADIZ jeopardize my way of life.
THEY are the enemy, not my government.

Actually, I'm beginning to believe that both are the enemy ... and I'm a
life-long Republican.


We the People will eventually change or eliminate the ADIZ -- or not. It's
all going to come down to how well we (as pilots) argue our case in the
court of public opinion -- and brazenly breaking the ADIZ (and causing
thousands of non-pilots to panic every other week) is NOT helpful.

I agree that we shouldn't break the law and violate the ADIZ, but I do
believe we shnould "rail against the darkness" but continuing to lobby
our Congress critters to change this stupid restriction.


Matt

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:klaye.120489$_o.38047@attbi_s71...
I agree 100%. But are you willing to bet that the casual weekend pilot
has the navigational savvy to ded reckon his way around the ADIZ?

I don't. I flew in the ADIZ a few weeks ago, and there aren't very many
identifiable landmarks (until, of course, you see the Washington Monument,
by which time it's too late!) to use, especially in the evening haze. I
was damned glad to have that big ol' color map to follow.

But dead reckoning and pilotage don't exhaust the non-GPS navigational
options. Most rental planes have VOR receivers, for example.

--Gary

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:39:08 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote in
M5aye.119732$x96.80495@attbi_s72::

This is not a constructive attitude, IMHO. Railing against the darkness
helps not...

How does benign complacency help?

One person's "benign complacency" is another person's "following the rules."

Or are you advocating that we all bust the ADIZ to prove your point?

I'm sorry you missed my point.

What I found unacceptable is your apparent ready willingness to endure
without protest an ill conceived encroachment on the rights of airmen
under penalty of death, that fails to provide any modicum of deterrent
to those with evil intent. The DC ADIZ only serves as a palliative
for the uninformed to provide the appearance of effective action by a
government agency charged with an impossible task. If we become
benignly complacent toward such encroachments, we patently approve and
endorse them, and send the message that thinking airmen are eager and
willing dupes in the TSA's game of posturing before the public for
theatric effect.

Although the quoted part of your message to which I was responding
makes no reference to not following the rules, perhaps your suggestion
of a mass pilot civil disobedience protest may have some merit.
Railing against the darkness of stupid, lethal policies implemented by
our government is the only power we posses to bring the brutish nature
of this offending ADIZ out into the light of public scrutiny.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:

This is not a constructive attitude, IMHO. Railing against the
darkness helps not...

So what do you do everytime some new rule or law or restriction
of any kind comes along that you disagree with? Just put up with
it and say "oh well, just have to learn to live with it"?


No.

But I don't advocate breaking the rule while I'm arguing against it --
especially when the stakes are so high.

Every one of these bozos who violate that ADIZ jeopardize my way of
life.
THEY are the enemy, not my government.

Actually, I'm beginning to believe that both are the enemy ... and I'm a
life-long Republican.


Remember the oath that says to "...protect against all enemies, foreign and
domestic...".

Just like people are their own worst enemies, so it is with nations.