Issues around de-ice on a 182

One of the members of my club has proposed that we add TKS de-ice to our two
182s. Apparently, such a system is to become available later this year.

My reaction at first was negative. After all, in our near-NYC location, the
utility of such a tool is limited to a few months a year. Surely we could
spend money better (ie. on upgades that would be useful year round).

His reply to this reasoning is that our aircraft utilization is much lower
in the cold months than in the summer. If we can increase winter use, then
we get better value from our investment.

It's a good point. Of course, when I mentioned this to my wife, she asked
how much of the lower use was due to the threat of ice, and how much was
due to our lack of love for preflighting in subzero weather.

Another good point grin.

But it does have me wondering. The system would not be "known icing"
compliant. So...what difference in utilization would it make? I'm curious
what others - esp. that fly with de-ice - would reply.

Thanks...

Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...


But it does have me wondering. The system would not be "known icing"
compliant. So...what difference in utilization would it make? I'm
curious
what others - esp. that fly with de-ice - would reply.

You will need to wrestle with the issue of non-known-icing certification,
although the C182 certainly is overpowered enough to be a reasonable
candidate for known-ice certification and certainly there are many legendary
stories of C182 pilots flying with inadvertent icing in a C182.

I can tell you my increased utilization of my P210 after I added TKS has
been dramatic in the winter; in fact, I now prefer to fly family vacations
in the winter instead of the summer because my winter dispatch rate is
higher than my summer dispatch rate even with radar and weather datalink and
a Strikefinder. My wife would agree wholeheartedly despite the cost of TKS
on the P210.



--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
my winter dispatch rate is higher than my summer dispatch rate
even with radar and weather datalink and a Strikefinder.

Wow! You must be having a hell of a thunderstorm season, Richard.

This summer, weather datalink has helped me to make every trip I've
planned without a single cancellation (although I did land short once).
In the last 5 weeks I've flown 30 xc hours despite widespread
thunderstorms over the entire South nearly every day. That's with a lot
less capable airplane than you have.

I'd be interested to read your go/no go parameters. What kinds of
summer conditions keep you on the ground?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

I'd be interested to read your go/no go parameters. What kinds of
summer conditions keep you on the ground?

I stay on the ground when my flight would need to penetrate more than
scattered storms, i.e. I don't fly in situations when I can get boxed in
behind me or if I need to cross frontal thunderstorms.

Often that means if I have a 1-day business trip returning in late
afternoon, I drive intead of flying because it isn't worth the worry/risk
that the afternoon storms will be too difficult to penetrate.

I don't think I'm any different than other experienced IFR pilots. When
pilots are scheduled to fly to me for IFR recurrent training who have
well-equipped airplanes, arrival delays are more common due to summer
thunderstorms than to winter icing. When I conducted a group "IFR Survival
Weekend" class a few weeks ago, pilots were concerned about thunderstorms
but wanted to be present for the whole course and therefore about 15 out of
20 drove instead of flying.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
I stay on the ground when my flight would need to penetrate
more than scattered storms, i.e. I don't fly in situations when
I can get boxed in behind me

That would keep me grounded much of the summer down here if I were very
picky about the definition of "scattered." Using satellite NEXRAD
requires me to be much more discriminating about the nature of the
storms. Are they numerous but developing and moving slowly? In that
case I might go if I "need" to (Angel Flight) and I see a route with
plenty of outs available. Are they popping up everywhere and moving
fast? No go. Sometimes the pattern of development is very obvious --
sea breeze storms, for instance -- and the NEXRAD will keep me assured
after takeoff that the route I've chosen is still good.

or if I need to cross frontal thunderstorms.

That's what stopped us short of Jackson, MS. The pilot of the next leg
had to drive out to Laurel in his car and pick up the patient, drive her
back to Jackson and wait for the line to pass.

Often that means if I have a 1-day business trip returning
in late afternoon, I drive intead of flying because it isn't
worth the worry/risk that the afternoon storms will be too
difficult to penetrate.

Yeah, I used to cancel a lot of business flights to Dothan for just that
reason. I haven't since I got the weather link, though.

When I conducted a group "IFR Survival Weekend" class
a few weeks ago, pilots were concerned about thunderstorms
but wanted to be present for the whole course and therefore
about 15 out of 20 drove instead of flying.

Don't get me wrong, thunderstorms still scare the crap out of me. It's
just that now I know where they are and what they're doing: it was the
fear of flying blind that used to keep me on the ground a lot more
often.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:

Don't get me wrong, thunderstorms still scare the crap out of me. It's
just that now I know where they are and what they're doing: it was the
fear of flying blind that used to keep me on the ground a lot more
often.

All our aircraft (including the 182s subject to the potential addition of
de-ice) have strikefinders. However, one of the options I'd entertain as
an alternative to the de-ice is weather download.

- Andrew

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
I stay on the ground when my flight would need to penetrate
more than scattered storms, i.e. I don't fly in situations when
I can get boxed in behind me

That would keep me grounded much of the summer down here if I were very
picky about the definition of "scattered."

Out west (I've only flown twice east of the Mississippi in 15 years flying)
it means leaving at sunrise and being back before about 3:00PM.

The weather data link (weather in the cockpit) would definitely help 'see'
what's ahead and around corners . My go-no go decisions are made based on
the criteria mentioned above but the screen gives me a good path around the
cells (stick to clear or light green).

Case in point was Friday returning from Ft Myers, Fl to TN. Couldn't get
away until 9pm due to solid lines across FL & GA but after dark, they died
down with large holes to fly thru. We made it without a drop on the wings
(save one little spot in GA)

Having said (?) that, I'd get TKS in a heart beat, if it were available on
my A36.
--

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.



take off my shoes to reply

(Richard Kaplan) wrote in message . com...
"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
I don't think I'm any different than other experienced IFR pilots. When
pilots are scheduled to fly to me for IFR recurrent training who have
well-equipped airplanes, arrival delays are more common due to summer
thunderstorms than to winter icing. When I conducted a group "IFR Survival
Weekend" class a few weeks ago, pilots were concerned about thunderstorms
but wanted to be present for the whole course and therefore about 15 out of
20 drove instead of flying.

Wow. I fly in California over teh Sierras and northern Cal. You are
almost guaranteed to get TS in the afternoon but they always seem easy
to go around. I've never had to cancel a summer afternoon flight
because of TS.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
(Richard Kaplan) wrote in message . com...

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
I don't think I'm any different than other experienced IFR pilots. When
pilots are scheduled to fly to me for IFR recurrent training who have
well-equipped airplanes, arrival delays are more common due to summer
thunderstorms than to winter icing. When I conducted a group "IFR Survival
Weekend" class a few weeks ago, pilots were concerned about thunderstorms
but wanted to be present for the whole course and therefore about 15 out of
20 drove instead of flying.


Wow. I fly in California over teh Sierras and northern Cal. You are
almost guaranteed to get TS in the afternoon but they always seem easy
to go around. I've never had to cancel a summer afternoon flight
because of TS.

If you fly in the eastern US for long, you will. TS can be embedded in the
widespread overcast, you can't see `em. Just another manifestation of the
apparently huge differences in weather patterns between E and W US. I've come to
feel I understand summertime weather pretty well, but of course I haven't done
any flying out west, and I suppose it's completely different.