FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 9:04:04 AM UTC-4, XC wrote:
Have we totally given up and agreed that ADS-B will be required in gliders, too?

Also, isn't it possible to have the same stealth technology in glider ADS-B boxes? It seems as though all the logic has been worked out. As this thread started out saying the stealth mode really works well for collision avoidance.

I am not buying the arguments about enhancing situational awareness. These seem to be coming from folks who haven't tried stealth mode or are wanting to use FLARM to enhance/extend their vision and improve their soaring performance by using thermals others have found and cored. Do we want unlimited use of this to be part of contest soaring where we are trying to determine who are our champions?

As FLARM becomes meshed, that is each FLARM unit transmits all the data it receives to all other units in range and so on, each pilot will have the ability to see what is going on in the whole task area. Again, this quickly takes us to a point where contests are about who can gather the most information from others rather than who can best read the sky.

XC

Requirement being presented would be ADSB out so the "system" can see you. It does not mean you have to have and use a display and use ADSB in, particularly in competition. Currently "out and in" would not be contest legal in the US as it is not a permitted 2 way communication.
FWIW
UH

You could set the ADS-B Horizontal and vertical ranges to zero in PowerFlarm. Unfortunately that wouldn't stop people from putting a Garmin ADS-B unit that communicates to IOS or Android devices via WiFi in, say, the tail fin battery box or some other not obvious location. Receivers are pretty cheap and easy.

Ultimately, on-demand inspections might be required.

9B

2 cents from a Rookie so take it for what it's worth.

I put my FlARM on Stealth for the Nationals - worked just as good to find people I could not see quickly and were close enough that is was comforting to find them.

I bought Flarm originally to see power traffic coming down out of a cloud on IFR when I get a little too close to cloud base - it still does that nicely.

When I am at home if I want to know where other gliders are I just call them on the radio and they tell me location, height and if they have "great lift" - so I am not sure if/why I will change the FLARM config file.

I have competed in pretty high level sports and have no disire to gain tactical advantage by seeing other gliders outside on eyesight range - true sport is about the inner game, which is where satisfaction really lives Some winners are never satisfied with their performance.

Stealth worked well makes sense for contests.

WH

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 1:57:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Excerpt from the BGA on this issue (July 2015)

See https://members.gliding.co.uk/2015/0...-stealth-mode/

"Following the Standard and 15m Nationals, the chairmen of the BGA comps, airspace and safety committees have consulted the relevant technical experts and as a consequence consider that the current 'Stealth' settings designed in by FLARM need to be changed so that the competition issues are resolved in a way that does not compromise non-gliding or external traffic awareness benefits. Therefore having considered the available advice, the Executive Committee has agreed to stop the trial for the remainder of this season's National competitions. The next National competition starts on 11th July. Pilots are free to make their own choices about use of FLARM.

The competitions committee and others will engage with the FLARM manufacturer with the aim of addressing all the identified issues in time for the next competition season.

Pilots are reminded that whilst electronic collision warning equipment can enhance pilots' awareness by providing most useful warnings, such equipment cannot and must not replace a good systematic visual lookout scan, and that it is necessary to avoid any in-cockpit equipment from distracting from the visual lookout scan."

Seems BGA is looking into changing Stealth mode settings to reduce contest advantage without affecting situational awareness. This seems a sensible approach to me. Perhaps we can also hook in with the BGA discussions with FLARM, since the compromise approach already has momentum and seems to address concerns about current stealth mode configuration?

Peter Deane

This in a message this morning form Russell Cheetham in the UK.
Hi Hank



As you say we revisited the mandating of stealth for Nationals after one event. The principle was widely accepted and applauded by most pilots but our Executive committee cancelled it due to pressure from outside stakeholders.. I have to say, when we designed the new stealth mode, we didn't think much about the outside stakeholders but it seems that there is some fitting of Powerflarm in the small jet sector so they can see gliders in the choke points around some of the busy airfields with no controlled airspace. Also the airfield controllers at these small airports have been installing Powerflarm tracking to help them to identify targets in and around their airspace. I am not sure in the end whether this improved conspicuousy will be used as an excuse to grab more controlled airspace once they see how much traffic there really is or as hoped to keep the airspace available for all GA users???

Anyway, the BGA decided that it was prudent to reputation to cancel the trail that from an outsiders perspective reduced the range of a great safety device from 10-15km to 2km.

Where do we go from from here?

The BGA has a commitment to come back and mandate an improved mode that will only influence those pilots that are required to set the mode. In other words, the competition pilots will only see a limited distance and get limited data whilst those not involved in the competition can have full range on all completion targets. Unfortunately, the benefit of cheating will be greater because at present a cheater only sees in full on mode non-competition gliders and any other cheaters so there is little incentive.

We hope, with the assistance of IGC to get Flarm to replace stealth mode with an IGC competition mode.(Stealth by name sends all the wrong messages to the outside stakeholders too) and have already started this dialogue.

Due to the issues identified and a "bug" the IGC did not mandate stealth for European Championship in Hungary as they intended.

The bug is that currently Naviter, LX Nav and LX Navigation devices display stealth targets with an incorrect directional icon. This is confusing for situation awareness. The problem is that once tracking direction data is not provided, the software handles the problem incorrectly and so displays a North up icon rather than resorting to interpolation of fixes as was supposed to happen. I understand Flarm have a fix in testing so that the computer software developers don't need to make changes - however, I expect by the time it is released and uploaded it will be too late for this season and am hoping we will be well on the way to a NEW mode by then.

We would be VERY interested in feedback from your trials so that this feedback can be used to develop the specification of any revised mode.

Cheers

Russell

If this isnt stating the obvious, why not simply propose 'contest mode' (replacing stealth mode) which suppresses ID and climb rate, everything else full range, and have done with it?

Stealth mode connotations go away. Awareness is maintained. Electronic leeching reduced..Contest folks hopefully happy (is that possible?)

Work with BGA folks with coordinated approach to the FLARM chappies - will still take a while to work out I'm sure.

Any takers?

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 6:54:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
If this isnt stating the obvious, why not simply propose 'contest mode' (replacing stealth mode) which suppresses ID and climb rate, everything else full range, and have done with it?

Stealth mode connotations go away. Awareness is maintained. Electronic leeching reduced..Contest folks hopefully happy (is that possible?)

Work with BGA folks with coordinated approach to the FLARM chappies - will still take a while to work out I'm sure.

Any takers?

The most useful is still "where are the guys that are out front?"
Example Mifflin 3 or 4 years ago- Do I cross the Stone Valley or do I go to Mill Creek? The guys with the good Flarm knew to go to Mill Creek.
Based on what we know from Russell, expect somewhat larger range, and naming something like "competition mode" or such.
The Brits very much wish to know our thinking.
UH

I agree with UH. Climb rates are useful but can change a lot by the time you get to that tantalizing gaggle ahead even without FLARM. But just knowing where the gliders in front of you are can make all the difference. Example: Elmira the last day 1 1/2 legs into a big MAT at the edge of an enormous blue hole. I had the option of heading back to Elmira under the clouds for a sure thing finish at an incredibly slow speed. The thermals hadn't been all that reliable under the clouds. "Am I crazy for heading out into the void? Where did everyone go?" The first thermal in the blue was 4 kts. (that's good for around here, for the benefit of our Western comrades) so I kept going. But I relaxed a little when a couple of gliders came into view a few miles ahead. If I had had full-range FLARM, there would have been no decision to make. Call it what you want, providing collision warnings while revealing as little info as possible in "gaggle radar" mode is the way to go. If you want easy, get a motor.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

This extremely interesting thread started out focusing on using Stealth mode at a US Nationals contest, resulting from a feeling that Flarm was being used as a tactical device during a contest conducted under FAI rules (rules which we know encourage gaggling). During the discussion others stated their belief that non-Stealth Flarm was unsafe because it resulted in too much head down time, and several (tongue-in-cheek?) software specifications were given to improve non-Stealth Flarm leeching. The use of Flarm as a good situational awareness tool (suggested by some) seemed to be discounted because of claims of leeching.

But no solid evidence was presented that leeching really is a problem in US contests. Andy (9B) did an analysis which showed that the use of Flarm in Stealth mode resulted in worse contest finish performance by top pilots than they achieved when using non-Stealth Flarm. However, case for the use of Flarm for being used for leeching was only made anecdotally (at best) by others.

Before changes are made to the US rules regarding Flarm usage, I think it should be determined if leeching is really happening in US contests. This should be possible to determine by (1) defining quantitatively what leeching is, and (2) examining contest log files for instances meeting the definition.

A major hurdle, of course, is the definition of leeching. It's clear you're leeching if you follow someone within a mile of their tail all around the task. But, if KS passes me and I follow him 5 minutes to the next thermal where I lose him, is that leeching? How about if I happen to use 4 out of the 12 thermals he's used in a TAT, but our courses are different? What if all the thermals I use were also used by different top pilots in different classes within a few minutes of me arriving?

If leeching can only be defined by "I'll know it when I see it", then perhaps an adaptation of OLC's MeetingPoints function might help point out places to examine manually to see if leeching is occurring. But one way or another, looking for instances of leeching really should be done to determine if we really have a problem, before we go further on deciding what to do with Flarm in contests.

-John, Q3

Don't want to get off topic - as a beginner in the Sport of Sailplane contests, but a veteran of competitive sports - this whole "Leeching" thing - such a ugly word.

So if one of the best pilots as described above (KS) passes me and I try to stay with him - that's a bad thing?? (as if I could). Wow, there are allot of sports with leeches, running, car racing, sailboats racing...... as a matter of fact it is hard to think of one that you do and don't try to follow the best person.

FLARM on the other hand - I can under stand that when a glider gets so far away that you can't see them - and this technology allows you to do what your eyes can not - that seems to me to be unfair and unwanted. Especially since vision (both eyesight and the ability to interpret what we see) is a important aspect of our sport.

I chatted with some experienced guys - they all seem to agree - have a Flarm and set it to 50 miles so you know where everyone is........ works well to make you go faster, but is wrong. and I thought when I bought my Flarm it was to keep from bumping into other gliders and to avoid them bumping into me - I do not need to see gliders much further than a mile or two or three to accomplish that.

Stealth seemed to make sense in a contest - just like not allowing your crew to look at SPOT and call you to tell you which way to go.

I hope I am not a future "Leecher" but man if I can stay with Karl someday , now that would be impressive

WH

Staying with a top pilot is a SKILL. It is not the skill of gliding well
but it is a skill nevertheless. I know of real experts in this. Flarm radar
undermines this skill so that we can all do it!

Do we want our sport to be about flying tactics or flying skill. Seems to
me that we should protect the latter whenever we can.

Jim