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#11
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
Gordon wrote: I can do better than that. ) I have the 3' long MiG 21 model from the movie on a shelf over my desk. They only used one, set up among mirrors to make it appear to be a small formation of jets. Watch them bank in the movie - that formation is almost "magically" tight... Speaking of being "magically tight", I once saw that model displayed up on a wall in another movie...in a porn movie to be specific. How and when exactly did you come into possession of it? Neat model, lots of detail, however most of it is painted on. That's what they used to say about Seka also. Pat |
#12
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
....And two holes' worth of smoke at that.
-- Mike Kanze 436 Greenbrier Road Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259 USA 650-726-7890 Mr. Johnson: "What's the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion?" Evelyn: "Jail." - The Elderberries (comic strip), 4/14/2007 "Bill Shatzer" wrote in message . .. Mike wrote: The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in flight. Nah, the F-4 is the one trailing copious amounts of smoke. Cheers, |
#13
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
The man that built it donated it to the San Diego Aerospace Museum in
approximately 1982 -- I have a photo of myself with it in September 1983 in the library of the museum. v/r Gordon Seka? Did you really just invoke the name of Seka?? You are talking to a fan of KEISHA, a *real* woman! |
#14
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On 15 Apr, 17:00, "Mike" wrote:
The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in flight. OPEN THIS FILE AT HOME, NOT AT WORK!!! MIKE from Secrecy Newswww.fas.org VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION (FOUO) More than 160 U.S. and foreign military aircraft are catalogued in a U.S. Army manual which describes their distinctive physical characteristics in order to permit visual identification of the aircraft in flight. The manual is nominally a restricted document, marked "for official use only," and it has not been approved for public release. But a copy was obtained by Secrecy News. Proper identification of aircraft is obviously a matter of military significance. Incorrectly identifying a friendly aircraft (such as an F-15 Eagle) as an enemy aircraft (such as a MiG-29 Fulcrum) in wartime "could cause fratricide," meaning the destruction of friendly aircraft, the manual states. Conversely, incorrectly identifying an enemy aircraft (a Su-24 Fencer) as a friendly one (such as a Tornado) "might allow a hostile aircraft entry into, or safe passage through, the defended area." On the other hand, mistaking one type of hostile aircraft (a Su-17 Fitter) for another type of hostile aircraft (a MiG-21 Fishbed) would generally have "no impact" -- except "if friendly countries were flying some aircraft types that are normally considered hostile." Likewise, mistaking one type of friendly aircraft (an F-4 Phantom) for another (an A-4 Skyhawk) would normally not be a great problem unless "a hostile country was using an aircraft type that is normally considered friendly." The manual covers both well- known and relatively obscure systems, but does not include classified aircraft. Although an earlier edition of the manual was published without access restrictions, the current edition (2006) was not approved for public release. But as the government imposes publication restrictions on an ever larger set of records, the control system seems to be breaking down at the margins, permitting unauthorized access with increasing frequency. In this case, contrary to the restriction notice on the title page, the document does not reveal sensitive "technical or operational information." See "Visual Aircraft Recognition," U.S. Army Field Manual FM 3-01.80, January 2006 (413 pages in a very large 28 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-01-80.pdf Who did the proof reading on that document. Some of the errors are atrocious. I hope nobody was tested on 'user countries' Jaguar user countries 'Pakistan, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, USA' MiG-29 Fulcrum User countries 'Bahrain, Belgium, Denmark, Egypt, Greece, Indonesia, Israel, Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, Venezuela' Same for the Mirage III/V and Orao user countries. The imagery is generally good. The only glaringly obvious mistake was that one of the images of the Su-15 Flagon is a J-8 Finback Su-27 Flanker User country 'Germany' The old mistake of 'Tu-26' for Tu-22M 'TU-26 Backfire' There is a lot of aircraft in that document that have retired or even never entered service. Yak-28 Su-15 They even have the Nimrod AEW3! |
#15
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On Apr 15, 1:14 pm, Bill Shatzer wrote:
Mike wrote: The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in flight. Nah, the F-4 is the one trailing copious amounts of smoke. Cheers, Only the USAF ones...late models of USN had smokeless engines..flew 'em in VF-151-'S' model. |
#16
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
"Gordon" wrote in message ups.com... Mistaking an F-4 for a Scooter or a MiG 21 is like mistaking an 18- wheeler for a Hummer. Sure, a moron could do it. Actually, an F-4 in planform at about 4-5 miles looks a lot like an A-4 at 3-4 miles. It's easy to VID when your looking at pictures in a book, not so easy when the aircraft is near the limits of vision (sun position, clear sky background or not, etc). We altered the rules for an ACM derby a number of years back. A mistaken VID and shot cost the shooters points. With a mixed F-5 / A-4 section (you couldn't ask for more dissimilar aircraft), head-on VID ranges came down from 3+ miles to less than a mile. R / John |
#17
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:14:56 -0700, Bill Shatzer
wrote: Mike wrote: The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in flight. Nah, the F-4 is the one trailing copious amounts of smoke. Cheers, Believe it or not, that was a huge advantage for us in SEA. It was a quick clue whether or not a bogie was friendly. When you've got numerical superiority you don't mind being visible and gaining a little protection from an over-eager shooter. But, the smoke pretty much went away from the F-4 fleet around 1980 as I recall. The upgraded combustion section of the J-79 came around the same time as the wrap-around camo pattern. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
#18
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On Apr 15, 3:06 pm, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 15 Apr 2007 11:41:55 -0700, "Gordon" wrote: Mistaking an F-4 for a Scooter or a MiG 21 is like mistaking an 18- wheeler for a Hummer. Sure, a moron could do it. It's remarkably easy to mistake a Scooter for a MiG-21 from some aspects. Been there, done that. Didn't shoot! Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com Hey, hey, hey . . . just a minute . . . details, details, we want details on this. Seriously, I don't remember this particular war story. I am sure that I am not the only one in the group would appreciate it if you could tell us more about this experience. Thanks and blue skies to all John |
#19
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On 16 Apr 2007 08:51:48 -0700, "John" wrote:
On Apr 15, 3:06 pm, Ed Rasimus wrote: On 15 Apr 2007 11:41:55 -0700, "Gordon" wrote: Mistaking an F-4 for a Scooter or a MiG 21 is like mistaking an 18- wheeler for a Hummer. Sure, a moron could do it. It's remarkably easy to mistake a Scooter for a MiG-21 from some aspects. Been there, done that. Didn't shoot! Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com Hey, hey, hey . . . just a minute . . . details, details, we want details on this. Seriously, I don't remember this particular war story. I am sure that I am not the only one in the group would appreciate it if you could tell us more about this experience. Thanks and blue skies to all John Stories that don't get told, are usually stories with not much to tell. This one was simply a case of milling around over N. Vietnam and finding myself directly below a suspicious silouhette--in those days, the general rule that I followed was that you can't be too fast, and you can almost never be too low. Clearly defined black silhouette above of small aircraft with narrow fuselage, fairly small delta wing and a distinct tail plane. All the components of the MiG-21 silhouette. Single exhaust, no smoke. Instantaneous analysis was enemy aircraft--three seconds later, the bogie rolled and the humpbacked, stubby fuselage of an A-4 was clearly indentifiable and my equally instantaneous analysis was "how could I have ever thought it looked like a MiG?" Fortunately the whole sequence took place too quickly for me to engage mouth and broadcast my stupidity to the civilized (i.e. USAF) world. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
#20
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
A little aware of capabilities of both types, I don't think mistaking
Fishbed with Fitter would have "no impact" on the troops. Fighter capabilities of Su-17 are poor, but MiG-21 cannot haul heavy air-to- ground ordnance (like H-29 missile) or a nuclear bomb, though I don't remember if the latter capability was well-advertised in the Warsaw Pact forces... Best regards, Jacek On the other hand, mistaking one type of hostile aircraft (a Su-17 Fitter) for another type of hostile aircraft (a MiG-21 Fishbed) would generally have "no impact" -- except "if friendly countries were flying some aircraft types that are normally considered hostile." |
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