A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old December 5th 12, 09:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:43:22 PM UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:
We all know the US rules. But many, MANY have deep misconceptions about the FAI rules. Many disturbingly so...


Sean
F2


Sean,
I have flown 8 contests with IGC/FAI rules. I am disturbed that no one other than myself is concerned about light weight pilots flying with lead filled cockpits. How do you safely fasten the weight? How do you adjust the CG?
How do you support a rule that handicaps you if you don't fly at MTOW?
Rick Walters
  #92  
Old December 5th 12, 11:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 585
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

I am disturbed that no one other than myself is concerned about light weight pilots flying with lead filled cockpits.

Probably because most pilots have the opposite problem .

I myself have the same problem as you have. When I had a club class
glider I created a seat pan mold and then used lead pellets with epoxy
to fill it. I also put belts through it and attached them to the seat
belt mount points. The extra weight was 55 lb. By the way I still have
it if anyone is interested. It is made for SZD-55-1. Yes it was a lot
of work but much less work than gaining 55 lb and much healthier .
Would I do it again? No, I make too many mistakes to blame them on
weight.

For the pilots at the top of the ladder they might have a different
view.
  #93  
Old December 6th 12, 01:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:27:50 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:43:22 PM UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:

We all know the US rules. But many, MANY have deep misconceptions about the FAI rules. Many disturbingly so...




Sean


F2




Sean,

I have flown 8 contests with IGC/FAI rules. I am disturbed that no one other than myself is concerned about light weight pilots flying with lead filled cockpits. How do you safely fasten the weight? How do you adjust the CG?

How do you support a rule that handicaps you if you don't fly at MTOW?

Rick Walters


Rick,

I appreciate your concern. Safety should ALWAYS be discussed openly.

I don't believe lead weight is inherently dangerous. When I was younger, shorter and a lot lighter, I used lead weight ballast responsibly. Nobody thought is was controversial. I'm not saying use of lead weight can't be applied irresponsibly. That same pilot can also be unsafe in any number of other areas as well, not just lead weight.

At the last Club Class WGC there were likely pilot(s) adding lead weight. However, it was a non-issue. I'm not aware of a pilot adding lead weight because it apparently wasn't controversial enough to make conversation.

I KNOW OF a US pilot adding lead weight flying Sports Class here in the US. Apparently the advantage of flying at max weight is more advantageous than handicap adjustment.

Unless the RC outlaws lead weight in US contests I suspect it will continue to happen just like it will in FAI rules.

Sean Franke (HA)
  #94  
Old December 6th 12, 01:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 192
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

Rick,



I appreciate your concern. Safety should ALWAYS be discussed openly.



I don't believe lead weight is inherently dangerous. When I was younger, shorter and a lot lighter, I used lead weight ballast responsibly. Nobody thought is was controversial. I'm not saying use of lead weight can't be applied irresponsibly. That same pilot can also be unsafe in any number of other areas as well, not just lead weight.



At the last Club Class WGC there were likely pilot(s) adding lead weight. However, it was a non-issue. I'm not aware of a pilot adding lead weight because it apparently wasn't controversial enough to make conversation.



I KNOW OF a US pilot adding lead weight flying Sports Class here in the US. Apparently the advantage of flying at max weight is more advantageous than handicap adjustment.



Unless the RC outlaws lead weight in US contests I suspect it will continue to happen just like it will in FAI rules.



Sean Franke (HA)


Lead ballast is legal under US rules

6.8.3.2 Fixed ballast is permitted, but not more than an amount that brings the sailplane to its maximum handicap weight, as defined in the SSA Sailplane Handicap List.

However, the handicap adjustment goes in both directions -- light pilots get a better handicap. This was done to remove the incentive to pile up those bags of lead shot bouncing around many cockpits.

11.6.1.2.2 â€* If Competition Weight (Rule 6.12.3) is different from the specified Handicap Weight, the Handicap Factor shall be multiplied by the following:
1.0 - ((Competition Weight) - (Handicap Weight)) * 0.0002

This is one of those "complexities" in US rules that everyone complains about until we ask people for specific rules that should be dropped.

John Cochrane
  #95  
Old December 6th 12, 05:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

Sean and John,

Yes, fixed ballast is allowed in US sports class rules. My concern is the Erik Nelson, Sarah Arnold, superfit lightweight pilots that will be at a disadvantage in the proposed CC unless they lead ballast up to MTOW. You can't add 100# under your seat without adding tail ballast. Most spar shelves are limited to 5kg. Few have an A&P do a proper installation. I know of weights slipping into control mechanisms. I remember Robbie Robertson. Weight behind your head is stupid.

I have flown an ASW24 at MTOW against a very light LS8 at the Sports nats. Our handicap weight adjustments work very well, both up and down. We flew with identical handicaps. They adjust the FAI CC rules for overweight, so it would not be any more work to adjust for underweight. No added complexity.
Rick Walters

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 4:53:45 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Rick,


I appreciate your concern. Safety should ALWAYS be discussed openly.


I don't believe lead weight is inherently dangerous. When I was younger, shorter and a lot lighter, I used lead weight ballast responsibly. Nobody thought is was controversial. I'm not saying use of lead weight can't be applied irresponsibly. That same pilot can also be unsafe in any number of other areas as well, not just lead weight.


At the last Club Class WGC there were likely pilot(s) adding lead weight. However, it was a non-issue. I'm not aware of a pilot adding lead weight because it apparently wasn't controversial enough to make conversation.



I KNOW OF a US pilot adding lead weight flying Sports Class here in the US. Apparently the advantage of flying at max weight is more advantageous than handicap adjustment.


Unless the RC outlaws lead weight in US contests I suspect it will continue to happen just like it will in FAI rules.


Sean Franke (HA)

Lead ballast is legal under US rules

6.8.3.2 Fixed ballast is permitted, but not more than an amount that brings the sailplane to its maximum handicap weight, as defined in the SSA Sailplane Handicap List.


However, the handicap adjustment goes in both directions -- light pilots get a better handicap. This was done to remove the incentive to pile up those bags of lead shot bouncing around many cockpits.

11.6.1.2.2 â€* If Competition Weight (Rule 6.12.3) is different from the specified Handicap Weight, the Handicap Factor shall be multiplied by the following:

1.0 - ((Competition Weight) - (Handicap Weight)) * 0.0002

This is one of those "complexities" in US rules that everyone complains about until we ask people for specific rules that should be dropped.
John Cochrane


  #96  
Old December 6th 12, 07:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 192
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 10:53:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Sean and John,



Yes, fixed ballast is allowed in US sports class rules. My concern is the Erik Nelson, Sarah Arnold, superfit lightweight pilots that will be at a disadvantage in the proposed CC unless they lead ballast up to MTOW. You can't add 100# under your seat without adding tail ballast. Most spar shelves are limited to 5kg. Few have an A&P do a proper installation. I know of weights slipping into control mechanisms. I remember Robbie Robertson. Weight behind your head is stupid.



I have flown an ASW24 at MTOW against a very light LS8 at the Sports nats.. Our handicap weight adjustments work very well, both up and down. We flew with identical handicaps. They adjust the FAI CC rules for overweight, so it would not be any more work to adjust for underweight. No added complexity.

Rick Walters


Rick: I agree, and wasn't clear. The point of the US rule that changes handicap in both directions is precisely so pilots will not feel the need to use extra weight.

We talked about banning extra weight this year but decided not too much change at once. I completely agree that extra weights are a bad idea. We just need one crash with the bags of lead involved and you can imagine the fallout.

Adjusting the handicap for light weight is one little example where I humbly think US rules are a bit ahead of IGC rules, and an example why I still think it's wise for US contests to use US rules. Some of the "complexity" is beneficial.

John Cochrane
  #97  
Old December 6th 12, 10:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:20:16 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:

There is no rules-required official scoring program. Use a slide rule

if you want to. 1-26ers use their own program.


There is no rules-required scoring program for US regional contests. National contests mandate Winscore. Other program will be considered for national contests only after successfuly scoring a regional contest.

  #98  
Old December 7th 12, 02:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean F (F2)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 573
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

We will have some very interesting scoring news in the days to come.

Nearing 40 signatures with 38 just today.

Sean

F2
  #99  
Old December 7th 12, 02:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chilhowee[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

Since I weigh only 125 lbs, and since I've seen my name in this thread
a few times I suppose I can add a few comments. I fly a Discus b in
sports/club class competition and have tried both with and without
ballast. For me the handicap adjustment is not worth it to fly at 720
lbs (6.3 lbs/sq ft). A super-light Discus truly does climb like a
1-26... I'll let you guys fill in how it glides. I realize that not
all club class gliders are so wing loading sensitive and for some it
might be more advantages to take the handicap adjustment.

I've never flown any glider in which I didn't have to add some type of
ballast, most of the time lead bags and sometimes the little lead bars
up by my feet. Since I am also shorter than the heavier pilots there
is plenty of room to safely stow the lead bags behind my seat pan and
it is secured in a responsible manner. I haven't been in soaring as
long as most of you, so maybe there are things that I just don't know,
but as an A & P, IA, and flight instructor I feel perfectly safe in my
current situation.

The biggest reason that I am thankful ballasting is not out-lawed in
WGC competition is because without it I could not fly a comparable
glider with my teammate. Without ballast team flying would be much
less effective or even impossible.

One last thing is I have to say is "WOW, did Guy Byars just say he'd
be happy to update Winscore with an option for FAI scoring?" Maybe
others missed it. That would be great, especially if there were a fun
regional planned under FAI rules...

Sarah Arnold
  #100  
Old December 7th 12, 04:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Thursday, December 6, 2012 8:56:44 PM UTC-5, Chilhowee wrote:
One last thing is I have to say is "WOW, did Guy Byars just say he'd
be happy to update Winscore with an option for FAI scoring?" Maybe
others missed it. That would be great, especially if there were a fun
regional planned under FAI rules...


Yes, I did say that and I meant it. But be careful what you wish for...

If you are going to hold a contest and STRICTLY follow the FAI rules to the letter, then that necessitates tasking and scoring in kilometers. If you read the FAI rules, you will see that the tasking parameters (cylinder radii, minimum task distances... etc) are all specified in km. Simply changing the units display on the task sheet will give you odd things like a turnpoint cylinder of 0.310686 miles or a Min Task distance of 62.1371 miles.

So if you then decide to change the task parameters to convenient English units, then you are no longer using the FAI rules, but something you made up yourself... like the SSA does now.

The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots. These issues need to be decided by the various appointed comittees and organizers. I am willing to work with them to implement what they decide in Winscore for next season.

Guy Byars


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Club Class Nationals 5 ugly Soaring 37 September 24th 10 03:27 AM
US 15 Meters Nationals and Region V South Club Class [email protected] Soaring 0 March 12th 09 04:59 PM
Establishing Club Class/Too Many Nationals/Not Enough Competitors Tim[_2_] Soaring 14 October 2nd 08 03:34 PM
AUS Club Class Nationals Overall Results Mal Soaring 0 January 27th 06 10:55 AM
UK Open Class and Club Class Nationals - Lasham Steve Dutton Soaring 0 August 6th 03 10:07 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.