Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:05:07 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
A plane's width? Not nearly enough!

i've never had to go further out than wingtip-to-wingtip to steer the tow pilot.

it was obvious that he didn't care a whit anyway, and Dan is right, he probably would have gut me loose if I'da drug his tail around.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 6:33:24 PM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

snip "What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot"
I'll argue with that; yes a good local tow pilot, particularly also a glider pilot, will take you to the house thermal but often times, I will emphasize some operations, will hire non glider rated tow pilots who although maybe qualified sticks, will have no real idea what the glider on the other end of the rope is looking for.
The FAR's are clear on signals and communications and there is no rime or reason why one can't have prior or inflight communications as to where one wishes to go and how one would like to spend his or her money.
I for one prefer signals on tow, as long as both the tow pilot ( and myself included ) have a clear understanding as to what they are. It is far too easy to not hear clearly, misunderstand muffled radio transmissions, he said, she said etc.
Just my opinion.
6PK

Regarding Aerotow Signals and Currency. Let's look up the "Towpilot Reg's." FAR 61.69(a)(3) and 91.309(a)(5) and find references that suggest that the tow pilot know the standard signals and review these signals on the mandatory towplane ground and flight instruction AND the mandatory glider ground instruction and dual flight instruction in a glider that a tow pilot must receive for their initial endorsement to tow gliders. Then every 24 months that tow pilot must meet and log the specific recurrency requirements of FAR 61.69(a)(6) before towing a glider.

Towpilots who did not receive glider training as part of their initial tow endorsement and /or do not meet the 24 month recurrency requirements might be in violation of the FAR's although not meeting the recurrency requirements of FAR 61.69 may be more of an issue with insurance adjusters after damage to the tow plane or other property if you have a loss and file a claim. (If people are injured you may be dealing with lawyers asking why you were not current in towing gliders.)

Towpilots who are not glider-rated and "building time" should take note of the recurrency requirements of FAR 61.69, specifically the "while accompanied by" statement.

FAR 91.309(a)(5) requires that both the tow pilot and the glider pilot discuss airspeeds, signals and more before each aerotow launch. Not convenient as written especially for a busy launch operation. How you decide to meet this requirement is up to you. A morning meeting to discuss towing procedures and signals for the operations? Perhaps, but I am not aware of any waiver or exemption from the FAA excusing this discussion, as inconvenient as it may be before each launch. You decide.

For the glider pilots, knowledge of the procedures was required before solo for your aerotow launch endorsement (FAR 61.31(j)(1) and for the Practical Test ("checkride") for your glider pilot rating(s). A review of the SSA Standard Signals would be a good practice to log on your "spring checkout", tow pilot recurrency flights or during your Flight Review as required by FAR 61.56. Check your pilot logbook to see if you are properly endorsed for glider aerotow launch and / or meet the FAR 61.69 requirements for towing gliders.

Finally, it is easy to default to the radio only as the only means of communication but you may not know if your transmission is clearly received, or "stepped on". So simultaneously use the radio AND the SSA standard signals to convey your message. It's that easy.

No, I do not know these FAR's off the top of my head. I simply look them up before submitting a post to a newsgroup or forum. If you enjoy looking for "loopholes" and exceptions have at it. I'm just passing along the references.

A free DVD of the SSA Standard Signals is available by request from the Soaring Safety Foundation (SSF) at www.soaringsafety.org (A copy of this DVD was sent to every US club and commercial operation a few years ago.)

Additional reading for towpilot training and 24 month recurrency: The "Towpilot Manual" published by Bob Wander at www.bobwander.com

Burt Compton, CFI (glider and airplane) / FAA Designated Pilot Examiner
. . . towed and towing since 1968.
Marfa, Texas, USA

Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them. If the glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then relax the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow gets to the desired heading.

We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is busy.

We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay centered on tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if a rated pilot or student is unstable on tow.

I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the rope" unless there is a possible upset of the tow plane.

A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a glider in tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another qualified tow pilot. (61.69 (6))
All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice steering turns during their Flight Review.

BillT

At 04:47 30 April 2015, Bill T wrote:
Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them. If the
glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then relax
the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow gets to
the
desired heading.

We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is busy.

We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay centered on
tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if a rated
pilot or student is unstable on tow.

I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the rope"
unless
there is a possible upset of the tow plane.

A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a glider
in
tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another qualified
tow
pilot. (61.69 (6))
All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice
steering turns during their Flight Review.

BillT

If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
the side, seriously?

Le jeudi 30 avril 2015 11:00:06 UTC+2, Don Johnstone a écrit*:
If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
the side, seriously?

Probably the same people that use bush drums instead of telephones ?
Seriously, in the last 35 years, I haven't had a single tow without radio contact to the tug.

A dated concept with consequences as deadly as a vertical upset.

See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
TUG UPSETS):

https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/cl.../documents/aer
otownotes.pdf

"Once again, radio communications between the glider and tug
combination might make the signal unnecessary"

Or adequate training of tug pilots to take the customer to an
appropriate piece of sky...

GG

At 08:56 30 April 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 04:47 30 April 2015, Bill T wrote:
Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them.
If the
glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then
relax
the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow
gets t
the
desired heading.

We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is
busy.

We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay
centered on
tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if
a rated
pilot or student is unstable on tow.

I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the
rope
unless
there is a possible upset of the tow plane.

A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a
glide
in
tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another
qualifie
tow
pilot. (61.69 (6))
All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice
steering turns during their Flight Review.

BillT

If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have on
expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying
out t
the side, seriously?

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

A 35 year tow pilot just did.
When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
UH

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:17:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

A 35 year tow pilot just did.
When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
UH

well, I'll send you to the gliderport, and you teach them how a real towpilot works!

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:17:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

A 35 year tow pilot just did.
When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
UH

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said he ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow, not because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have been a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.