Towpilots ignoring turn signals

As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:

First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications fail,
then the signals take over.

As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal -
use your head! This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
think: If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does your
nose point? To the right, right? Well, that's the direction the glider
wants to go. It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make such a simple
change to an erroneous figure in their document.

On 5/14/2015 6:57 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 15:11 04 May 2015, C-FFKQ 42 wrote:
On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan
Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the
towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the
left... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the
numerous errors in that book.
So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.


--
Dan Marotta

snip...if someone went out on say your left side for you turning even
more to the left would make little sense. 6PK
Actually, turning into the glider would create a lot of slack in the
rope very quickly. It makes me a bit nervous to think that there are a
lot of pilots who don't understand such simple concepts.
--
Dan Marotta

Actually... To turn you need to pull one of your oars in. You see,
pulling equally on both oars results in a straight course. I thought
that was common sense but I guess I was wrong...

On 5/14/2015 9:27 AM, James Metcalfe wrote:
At 12:57 14 May 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
... You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended.
Excellent, Don, and very worthy of someone from a traditionally
sea-faring nation!
ROTFL.
J.


--
Dan Marotta

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:



First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications
fail, then the signals take over.



As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal
- use your head!* This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
think:* If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does
your nose point?* To the right, right?* Well, that's the direction
the glider wants to go.* It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make
such a simple change to an erroneous figure in their document.

Dan, maybe you've hit one of the issues on the head...... what is the background of the tow pilot?

If a "power guy", maybe they don't like getting steered.
If a "glider guy" that tows, maybe they don't mind.

At our field, pretty much all our tow pilots are also glider guys, thus they may understand what the glider pilot wants.
They also tend to have an idea on WHO is on the other end. A low time student may just be out of shape (towplane goes straight & ignores steering) while someone with more time may want steering.

We try to tow to the "hot spot of the moment" (based on last tow) but are willing to be steered as needed for those that "may" have a better idea.

Right on the head, Charlie.

When we get a new tow pilot who's not a glider pilot, we give him a lot
of guidance on what glider pilots want in addition to the FAA required
training. That said, it usually takes a couple of weeks for the new
tuggie to stop circling in dead air or simply flying straight out
that-a-way. They're always good about accepting steering commands via
radio, though not so much via a tug on the tail. Fortunately we all
have radios, but in a training environment, I always expect some tail
tugging with students on board. These are usually briefed in advance.

On 5/14/2015 11:07 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:



First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications
fail, then the signals take over.



As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal
- use your head! This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
think: If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does
your nose point? To the right, right? Well, that's the direction
the glider wants to go. It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make
such a simple change to an erroneous figure in their document.
Dan, maybe you've hit one of the issues on the head...... what is the background of the tow pilot?

If a "power guy", maybe they don't like getting steered.
If a "glider guy" that tows, maybe they don't mind.

At our field, pretty much all our tow pilots are also glider guys, thus they may understand what the glider pilot wants.
They also tend to have an idea on WHO is on the other end. A low time student may just be out of shape (towplane goes straight & ignores steering) while someone with more time may want steering.

We try to tow to the "hot spot of the moment" (based on last tow) but are willing to be steered as needed for those that "may" have a better idea.

--
Dan Marotta

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 1:30:01 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Right on the head, Charlie.



When we get a new tow pilot who's not a glider pilot, we give him a
lot of guidance on what glider pilots want in addition to the FAA
required training.* That said, it usually takes a couple of weeks
for the new tuggie to stop circling in dead air or simply flying
straight out that-a-way.* They're always good about accepting
steering commands via radio, though not so much via a tug on the
tail.* Fortunately we all have radios, but in a training
environment, I always expect some tail tugging with students on
board.* These are usually briefed in advance.




On 5/14/2015 11:07 AM, Charlie M. (UH
& 002 owner/pilot) wrote:



On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:


As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:



First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications
fail, then the signals take over.



As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal
- use your head!* This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
think:* If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does
your nose point?* To the right, right?* Well, that's the direction
the glider wants to go.* It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make
such a simple change to an erroneous figure in their document.


Dan, maybe you've hit one of the issues on the head...... what is the background of the tow pilot?

If a "power guy", maybe they don't like getting steered.
If a "glider guy" that tows, maybe they don't mind.

At our field, pretty much all our tow pilots are also glider guys, thus they may understand what the glider pilot wants.
They also tend to have an idea on WHO is on the other end. A low time student may just be out of shape (towplane goes straight & ignores steering) while someone with more time may want steering.

We try to tow to the "hot spot of the moment" (based on last tow) but are willing to be steered as needed for those that "may" have a better idea.





--

Dan Marotta

Glad we agree...... ROTFLMAO.......

As to "steering", there is quite a bit of difference between:
-Slide to the side to steer the towplane in a new direction
vs.
-"Yank that MoFo waaaayyyyyy out there quickly" to get steering. Not approved.

Our towpilot rule is, "When I'm about to hit any control stop, the rope goes 'bye bye'". No use in 2 holes in the ground!!!

I lost a tow pilot friend that "tried to save a tow" from a squirrel that went way too high too close to the ground.

On 5/14/2015 6:57 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
Snip...

So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.


Thanks for today's chuckle! Having difficulty letting this one go, are we? Ten
pounds says Great Britain's bureaucracies aren't the most infallible,
knowledgeable and responsive 800 pound gorillas around, either. I know this
because "Yes Minister" made its way to our side of the pond.

Our FAA - I refer to it as an organization; individually, it does have some
knowledgeable, responsive humans working in it (I've met a few of 'em) - isn't
noted for being the most sprightly of national bureaucracies...nor one of
particularly error-free, sensible pronouncements. There might be a U.S.
ratings-collecting towpilot somewhere who takes the FAA's Glider Flying
Handbook as gospel...but I doubt there's a U.S. soaring pilot who'd be happy
towing behind him if he knew!

OTOH, if you tow over here, U.S. glider-rated towpilots would Be happy to tow
you, regardless of your opinion on this particular matter. I've requested many
a steer by moving to one side or other of the trail position, preferring to
save the airwaves for truly important information. Probably over 95% of my
requests were responded to in mutually satisfactory manner...this entirely by
volunteer club towpilots. The remainder were ignored. No one died. No one got
alarmed. No ulcers were harmed. No sleep was lost.

So my experience has been that, yes, signalling to steer the tug generally
works as intended, is utterly benign when it fails to work, and is about as
much of an event as waiting for a traffic signal to change from red to green.
How sad my experience fails to match your alarmism.

Bob W.

P.S. For readers wondering why a steer might be requested in the face of
experienced-towpilot-knowledge, imagine taking the day's first tow into rising
ranges of jumbled mountains when neither of you are certain the day has begun
cooking. I've spent a lot more time scraping along the sides of various ridges
lower than most of our tuggies ever go in a towplane, and the direct route is
often considerably less expensive in bux and tug-time. Everyone benefits from
the steer...me, (arguably) the tuggie, and the glider pilots in the tow queue.
No teapot. No tempest.

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 4:33:58 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:

Our FAA - I refer to it as an organization; individually, it does have some knowledgeable, responsive humans working in it (I've met a few of 'em) - isn't noted for being the most sprightly of national bureaucracies...nor one of particularly error-free, sensible pronouncements.

It's discouraging that the soaring community cannot get the FAA to correct basic errors in the free online handbook that many new pilots find first. For every highly visible shortcoming in an information system, theory and experience says there will be hundreds of less visible shortcomings/defects. And if the process is so broken that simple sh_t like this can't get fixed, what happens on the more complicated issues?

BTW, Knauff and Grove Inc. publishes a hardcopy (second edition 2012) of the same Glider Flying Handbook that the FAA distributes. This version says 'glider pulls tug tail left to request tow to the right'. It claims that 1500 corrections were made in this edition (including spelling and grammatical errors). K & G claims a copyright on the second edition.

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 7:01:58 PM UTC-6, wrote:
"As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.


Using the radio to ask the tow pilot to change course is vastly preferable to using the turn signals (just as is the case with most of the other tow-glider signals) but they are standard Soaring Association Of Canada procedures and are in the student and instructor manuals. They specify "pull gently" and should be done so that you don't get any more out to the side than during a boxing the wake exercise.

I've never used them because I use the radio.

How about the tow pilot that refuses your radio request? 1984, PASCO Wave Camp. All gliders are being west and dropped in the general direction of the Kingsbury Grade. Thermal up to 13,500MSL in an apparent boundary layer thermal, push forward, no wave. Try again, no wave. Try again, fall out. Next tow request tow pilot to tow toward Sheridan and drop me over the intersection en route. He refuses and takes me toward Kingsbury, insisting the wave should be there! WTF, none of several gliders had connected there yet despite the rotor and thermal. The wave window wasn't even open. Didn't do much for my attitude either. Who's paying for this tow, anyway? Thermal again to 13,500 and head south. At 11,000MSL over the intersection, the gentle smoothness of wave. Climbing 400ft a minute, I request the wave window be opened passing through 15,000MSL and am told to wait and see how it goes. So after circling for 30 minutes at 17,999MSL with the air brakes open, I finally get the wave window. Topped out at FL270, a few others got into the wave. I think one made FL230. But I got my altitude diamond despite the poor service. That FBO is long gone.

Frank Whiteley