Winch Signals

On 9 Apr, 22:00, John Galloway wrote:

Take up slack = 3 words
All Out = 2 words
Stop = 1 word

The point of the different number of words is rather lost at clubs
which use "take up slack take up slack take take up slack all out all
out all out all out all out"

Nowadays the pilot does not call launch commands. When he has accepted a
cable attachment he is deemed to be ready to launch and the the wing
runner (or a designated other) is responsible for making the calls
properly.

Yeah, but that'll be changed again next time someone wants to make a
name for themselves in the BGA.

Ian

On 10 Apr, 09:15, Derek Copeland wrote:
At 21:00 09 April 2009, John Galloway wrote:

Nowadays the pilot does not call launch commands. When he has accepted a
cable attachment he is deemed to be ready to launch and the the wing
runner (or a designated other) is responsible for making the calls
properly.

When I first started gliding in the UK, the pilot used to control the
launch by holding up one finger, stationary, for 'up slack' and then two
fingers, waved in a sort of Churchillian Victory salute, for all out. The
problem was that student pilots often went on signalling all the way up
the launch and would then make a grab for the wrong knob when they got to
the top. I had students who tried to open the canopy, or pull the flap or
airbrake levers, when trying to release the cable!

When the arrangement outlined by John above came into force, there was
quite a lot of British resistance to it, as it was felt to be too
'French'.

Not just for that reason. The ostensible reason for the change was to
make sure that pilots had a hand free for the release in an emergency.
One might well point out that there ain't a much better guarantee that
a hand is free (and not fiddling with the electronics) than seeing it
waving around but no, that didn't do. And so now we are all free to
have our hands on the release know when the launch starts, thereby
greatly increasing the change of an unintentional release. Which
someone will in due course notice, and change it all again.

The problem with the new system is that the ground launch controllers
have to be good (which is not always the case) and carefully briefed
if there is anything odd about the type. The worst problems I have had
are when the glider starts moving with a bit of a jerk and slackens
the cable a bit. In the old days one just continued with the "take up
slack" until things were all lined up again - now the prodent pilot
pulls the bung and shouts "stop" in case one has one of the idiot
signallers who thinks any movement of the glider is the cue for "all
out".

Ian

On 9 Apr, 16:15, Nyal Williams wrote:

What have you heard? *Anyone have any comments to offer?

As well as the spoken and light commands I have used

single bat: bottom quadrant sweeps = "take up slack", top quadrant =
"all out", held above head = "stop"

double bat: same, with scissoring movements below and above for the
first two

no bat: rock wings = "take up slack", hold level = "all out"

As a winch driver I detest lights unless automated, because the
quality of signalling is dreadfully variable, particularly when people
forget the time lag in an incandescent bulb. I'd ban all light
signalling if I could. Bats are fine, as are clearly spoken words on a
telephone. "All out" just the once is fine, guys, you don't have to
keep yacking at me.

Ian

An airliner crashed somewhere in the far east (Taiwan?) after the air
traffic controller departed from standard phraseology with "descend
two five hundred feet"


Back in the days when there were flight engineers, during an emergency
the captain ordered "take off power". The FE dutifully pulled the
throttles back - that was not what the captain wanted.

Tony V.

If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high
launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless they
are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of wind.
Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a
hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield.

I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can
easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all
out' (faster flashes). My club did this years ago. Also we have two
lights, so that a stop signal is unlikely to be compromised by a single
bulb failure.

Derek C

At 20:48 11 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 9 Apr, 16:15, Nyal Williams wrote:

What have you heard? =A0Anyone have any comments to offer?

As well as the spoken and light commands I have used

single bat: bottom quadrant sweeps =3D "take up slack", top quadrant
=3D
"all out", held above head =3D "stop"

double bat: same, with scissoring movements below and above for the
first two

no bat: rock wings =3D "take up slack", hold level =3D "all out"

As a winch driver I detest lights unless automated, because the
quality of signalling is dreadfully variable, particularly when people
forget the time lag in an incandescent bulb. I'd ban all light
signalling if I could. Bats are fine, as are clearly spoken words on a
telephone. "All out" just the once is fine, guys, you don't have to
keep yacking at me.

Ian

If you go back far enough the stop light was a red light, this was fine
until it was remembered that there is no requirement for colour blindness
testing for glider pilots, let alone winch drivers. The only real problem
with lights only is the confusion between a long dash and the stop signal.

Without doubt the most efficient and safe way is voice radio backed up by
a STOP light. Clarity with no ambiguity




At 06:15 12 April 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high
launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless
they
are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of
wind.
Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a
hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield.

I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can
easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all
out' (faster flashes). My club did this years ago. Also we have two
lights, so that a stop signal is unlikely to be compromised by a single
bulb failure.

Derek C

At 20:48 11 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 9 Apr, 16:15, Nyal Williams wrote:

What have you heard? =A0Anyone have any comments to offer?

As well as the spoken and light commands I have used

single bat: bottom quadrant sweeps =3D "take up slack", top quadrant
=3D
"all out", held above head =3D "stop"

double bat: same, with scissoring movements below and above for the
first two

no bat: rock wings =3D "take up slack", hold level =3D "all out"

As a winch driver I detest lights unless automated, because the
quality of signalling is dreadfully variable, particularly when people
forget the time lag in an incandescent bulb. I'd ban all light
signalling if I could. Bats are fine, as are clearly spoken words on a
telephone. "All out" just the once is fine, guys, you don't have to
keep yacking at me.

Ian

On 12 Apr, 07:15, Derek Copeland wrote:
If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high
launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless they
are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of wind.
Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a
hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield.

Indeed. In which case radio or telephone should be used.

I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can
easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all
out' (faster flashes).

Anyone signalling to the winch should, I think, be obliged to spend
some time at the business end to see what the winch driver can see,
and appreciate what's needed and what the limitations of a particular
system are.

To give an example, I was winching at one club where the signaller had
been told (by a BGA instructor no less) to give the "all out" as a
series of fast flashes - 2 per second or thereabouts. The signalling
lamp was incandescent, which meant that the signal emerged as a
slightly fluctuating dim blur. So I interpreted it as a "stop" and cut
the power at once (ie right at the beginning of the ground run). After
a certain amount of re-education we were able to proceed in rather
greater safety.

Ian

On 12 Apr, 11:15, Don Johnstone wrote:
If you go back far enough the stop light was a red light, this was fine
until it was remembered that there is no requirement for colour blindness
testing for glider pilots, let alone winch drivers. The only real problem
with lights only is the confusion between a long dash and the stop signal.

I think there are worse problems - mainly the need for the person
pressing the button to know (a) what signal he is trying to give and
(b) how the light system reacts to the button being pressed.

Talking of blindness, though, I used to get launched by a blind winch
driver - or at least by one whose eyesight was so bad that he
certainly couldn't see the cable and could barely see the glider.
"Exciting" was one word for it.

Ian

On Apr 12, 7:15*am, Derek Copeland wrote:
Also we have two
lights, so that a stop signal is unlikely to be compromised by a single
bulb failure.

When I'm winching, I'm grateful that we have three lights:
* two for the normal up slack and all out
* stop = all three lights on continuously
I find I process that extra visual cue noticably faster than the
difference
between stop and the other signals. One day that half second might be
important.

We also have a buzzer that sounds in sync with the lights. I find
that useful confirmation of what I can see.

The signalling lights at our site are located on the top deck of a double
decker bus, so you can still see then over the hump.

In the UK there are only about 3 commonly available gliding frequencies,
and some gliding clubs are not that far apart. I could well imagine trying
to launch a glider on instructions that come from another club! Also winch
launching (and speed calls) would tie up a frequency that is often
required for other purposes.

Land lines have been tried in the UK, but it has been reported that they
were chewed through by rats, rabbits, sheep and other assorted critters.
even when buried in the ground. And yes I know that the Germans have to
use this system by the decree of the LBA. How do they avoid critter
damage?

Derek C

At 10:31 12 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 12 Apr, 07:15, Derek Copeland wrote:
If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high
launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless
they
are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of
wind.
Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over
a
hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield.

Indeed. In which case radio or telephone should be used.

I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can
easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all
out' (faster flashes).

Anyone signalling to the winch should, I think, be obliged to spend
some time at the business end to see what the winch driver can see,
and appreciate what's needed and what the limitations of a particular
system are.

To give an example, I was winching at one club where the signaller had
been told (by a BGA instructor no less) to give the "all out" as a
series of fast flashes - 2 per second or thereabouts. The signalling
lamp was incandescent, which meant that the signal emerged as a
slightly fluctuating dim blur. So I interpreted it as a "stop" and cut
the power at once (ie right at the beginning of the ground run). After
a certain amount of re-education we were able to proceed in rather
greater safety.

Ian