Sky Park VOR or GPS-1 question

The VOR or GPS-1 into Sky Park, NY (46N)
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/05462VG1.PDF has a
note saying "Final approach from Saggi Int holding pattern not
authorized. Procedure turn required". What doesn't make sense about
this is that SAGGI is an IAF, and you're allowed to use a holding
pattern as a PT. So, what's the note all about?

It's also not clear why the PT and missed hold are charted on opposite
sides of the approach course. Let's say you flew the approach, missed,
and entered the hold at SAGGI. The weather got a bit better and you
were cleared for another approach. The maneuvering you've had to do is
absurd. The logical thing would be to just continue in the hold until
you were inbound to SAGGI and continue from there. But, no, you've got
to turn around again, intercept the approach course outbound, do a PT,
re-intercept inbound, and then proceed. What's the point?

This seems like the kind of approach I need to bring a student to, just
to see how they handle it.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

note saying "Final approach from Saggi Int holding pattern not
authorized. Procedure turn required". What doesn't make sense about
this is that SAGGI is an IAF, and you're allowed to use a holding
pattern as a PT. So, what's the note all about?

That is definitely an interesting approach and an excellent one to use with
students... I'll have to keep it to use in the sim sometime for an emergency
night approach with a flashlight and limited battery life :-)

In this case, you cannot use the published hold as the procedure turn
because the hold is on the opposite side of the final approach course from
the procedure turn; you can do a procedure turn however you want but it must
be flown on the charted side of the final approach course.



--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:20:49 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

The VOR or GPS-1 into Sky Park, NY (46N)
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/05462VG1.PDF has a
note saying "Final approach from Saggi Int holding pattern not
authorized. Procedure turn required". What doesn't make sense about
this is that SAGGI is an IAF, and you're allowed to use a holding
pattern as a PT. So, what's the note all about?

It's also not clear why the PT and missed hold are charted on opposite
sides of the approach course. Let's say you flew the approach, missed,
and entered the hold at SAGGI. The weather got a bit better and you
were cleared for another approach. The maneuvering you've had to do is
absurd. The logical thing would be to just continue in the hold until
you were inbound to SAGGI and continue from there. But, no, you've got
to turn around again, intercept the approach course outbound, do a PT,
re-intercept inbound, and then proceed. What's the point?

This seems like the kind of approach I need to bring a student to, just
to see how they handle it.

Wild guess mode:

It's clear that the charted holding pattern is for the missed approach (and
not the initial approach). So perhaps there are different required
protected zones for a PT or Hold-in-lieu pattern, and the east side of the
FAC doesn't meet those criteria. Or maybe it has to do with the 5 NM
restriction on doing the PT.

I don't think you would necessarily have to go back to SAGGI either,
depending on where you were in the hold. If I had just started outbound,
and was abeam SAGGI, I'd probably turn right to a 'track' of 235, cross the
FAC and fly for a minute (depending on winds), and then turn left to
reintercept the FAC inbound, descending to 1800' when established on the
FAC.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

There is a definite difference in the airspace protected for a holding
pattern vis-a-vis a procedure turn. Dunno why the missed approach hold
couldn't be on the same side as the PT, though, since the PT eats up much
more airspace.

Bob Gardner

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:20:49 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

The VOR or GPS-1 into Sky Park, NY (46N)
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/05462VG1.PDF has a
note saying "Final approach from Saggi Int holding pattern not
authorized. Procedure turn required". What doesn't make sense about
this is that SAGGI is an IAF, and you're allowed to use a holding
pattern as a PT. So, what's the note all about?

It's also not clear why the PT and missed hold are charted on opposite
sides of the approach course. Let's say you flew the approach, missed,
and entered the hold at SAGGI. The weather got a bit better and you
were cleared for another approach. The maneuvering you've had to do is
absurd. The logical thing would be to just continue in the hold until
you were inbound to SAGGI and continue from there. But, no, you've got
to turn around again, intercept the approach course outbound, do a PT,
re-intercept inbound, and then proceed. What's the point?

This seems like the kind of approach I need to bring a student to, just
to see how they handle it.

Wild guess mode:

It's clear that the charted holding pattern is for the missed approach
(and
not the initial approach). So perhaps there are different required
protected zones for a PT or Hold-in-lieu pattern, and the east side of the
FAC doesn't meet those criteria. Or maybe it has to do with the 5 NM
restriction on doing the PT.

I don't think you would necessarily have to go back to SAGGI either,
depending on where you were in the hold. If I had just started outbound,
and was abeam SAGGI, I'd probably turn right to a 'track' of 235, cross
the
FAC and fly for a minute (depending on winds), and then turn left to
reintercept the FAC inbound, descending to 1800' when established on the
FAC.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Another question about this approach (and I've seen similar apparent
ommisions on other approaches):

Why isn't the initial approach segment from PAWLING marked "NoPT"?

To me, it makes no more sense to do a PT when coming in over PAWLING
than it does when coming in over KINGSTON, yet the KINGSTON IAS is
marked "NoPT", and the PAWLING one isn't.

Is this just a charting error, or is there a subtlety that I'm
missing?

TIA for any info.

Tim.

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:20:49 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

The VOR or GPS-1 into Sky Park, NY (46N)
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/05462VG1.PDF has a
note saying "Final approach from Saggi Int holding pattern not
authorized. Procedure turn required". What doesn't make sense about
this is that SAGGI is an IAF, and you're allowed to use a holding
pattern as a PT. So, what's the note all about?

It's also not clear why the PT and missed hold are charted on opposite
sides of the approach course. Let's say you flew the approach, missed,
and entered the hold at SAGGI. The weather got a bit better and you
were cleared for another approach. The maneuvering you've had to do is
absurd. The logical thing would be to just continue in the hold until
you were inbound to SAGGI and continue from there. But, no, you've got
to turn around again, intercept the approach course outbound, do a PT,
re-intercept inbound, and then proceed. What's the point?

This seems like the kind of approach I need to bring a student to, just
to see how they handle it.

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:35:21 GMT, "Richard Kaplan"
wrote:


"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

note saying "Final approach from Saggi Int holding pattern not
authorized. Procedure turn required". What doesn't make sense about
this is that SAGGI is an IAF, and you're allowed to use a holding
pattern as a PT. So, what's the note all about?

That is definitely an interesting approach and an excellent one to use with
students... I'll have to keep it to use in the sim sometime for an emergency
night approach with a flashlight and limited battery life :-)

In this case, you cannot use the published hold as the procedure turn
because the hold is on the opposite side of the final approach course from
the procedure turn; you can do a procedure turn however you want but it must
be flown on the charted side of the final approach course.


I understand what you are saying, but...

If you are established on the 010 Radial inside of NETER and outside
of SAGGI isn't that sufficient to begin a descent to 1800. I realize
a descent anywhere in the hold is not prudent, but I'm having a hard
time rationalizing flying a whole procedure turn if between NETER and
SAGGI a descent to 1800 is allowed.

Maybe there's a subtlety in your reply I did not pick up on, "you can
do a procedure turn however you want." Would this include briefly
flying through the 010 Radial on the inbound turn of the hold and then
re-establish? This would put you on the right (and correct) side of
the radial.

This is a good one.

Thanks for sharing.

z

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 16:29:05 -0600, Tim Auckland wrote:

Another question about this approach (and I've seen similar apparent
ommisions on other approaches):

Why isn't the initial approach segment from PAWLING marked "NoPT"?

To me, it makes no more sense to do a PT when coming in over PAWLING
than it does when coming in over KINGSTON, yet the KINGSTON IAS is
marked "NoPT", and the PAWLING one isn't.

Is this just a charting error, or is there a subtlety that I'm
missing?

On my Jepp chart dtd 5/21/2004, the segment from PWL IS marked NoPT. So
probably the NACO chart is incorrect.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Bob Gardner wrote:

There is a definite difference in the airspace protected for a holding
pattern vis-a-vis a procedure turn. Dunno why the missed approach hold
couldn't be on the same side as the PT, though, since the PT eats up much
more airspace.

Not in this case. This is one of those little tiny 5-mile PT areas, which they
can design into a CAT A only IAP

Roy Smith wrote:

The VOR or GPS-1 into Sky Park, NY (46N)
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/05462VG1.PDF has a
note saying "Final approach from Saggi Int holding pattern not
authorized. Procedure turn required". What doesn't make sense about
this is that SAGGI is an IAF, and you're allowed to use a holding
pattern as a PT. So, what's the note all about?

It's also not clear why the PT and missed hold are charted on opposite
sides of the approach course. Let's say you flew the approach, missed,
and entered the hold at SAGGI. The weather got a bit better and you
were cleared for another approach. The maneuvering you've had to do is
absurd. The logical thing would be to just continue in the hold until
you were inbound to SAGGI and continue from there. But, no, you've got
to turn around again, intercept the approach course outbound, do a PT,
re-intercept inbound, and then proceed. What's the point?

This seems like the kind of approach I need to bring a student to, just
to see how they handle it.

That note was removed from criteria several years ago. Obviously, this is
an old IAP and has not yet undergone the bimillium review. ;-)

Interesting. I have an old copy of FAAO 7130.3 and couldn't find a word
about five mile holding patterns, so I was kind of transmitting in the blind
(:-). What template is used?

Bob Gardner

wrote in message ...


Bob Gardner wrote:

There is a definite difference in the airspace protected for a holding
pattern vis-a-vis a procedure turn. Dunno why the missed approach hold
couldn't be on the same side as the PT, though, since the PT eats up
much
more airspace.

Not in this case. This is one of those little tiny 5-mile PT areas, which
they
can design into a CAT A only IAP